4 ms·

Rock Hurling Is Old Nemesis of Train Crews

34 points by joshrotenberg 11y ago

mschuster91 11y ago
In Munich, some years ago, ALEX trains used to arrive at the station with bullet holes in the carriages...
- tormeh 11y ago
  Why?
  - mschuster91 11y ago
    Can't really find anything, as in 2011 an unrelated shooting (two guys on the run noticed cops doing a routine check of other guests and decided to shoot the cops in cold blood; only casualty was one of the guys because he jumped the train at 100+ kph) happened in an ALEX train and that drowns out the older stuff in Google. But if memory serves me right it was some nutcase with an illegal rifle.
  - mschuster91 11y ago
    Okay, I found something (http://www.merkur.de/lokales/muenchen/stadt-muenchen/unbekannter-schiesst-express-zuege-79380.html http://www.merkur.de/lokales/muenchen/stadt-muenchen/unbekan...), the trains got shot at two times, and multiple acts of sabotage and vandalism occurred. Nothing about the outcome of all this, though.
moron4hire 11y ago
This is why I moved out of Philadelphia. Not at all surprised. If this turns out to be true, nobody will be. And just another wonderful example of why news organizations shouldn't print the names of people thought to be at fault until they learn the truth. Mayor Nutter had been saying some nasty things about this conductor and I'm sure a lot of people have picked up on it and have decided for themselves he killed those seven people. We don't know yet what happened. It was irresponsible journalism to print his name.
- maxerickson 11y ago
  The media is incredibly ghoulish. The mayor's comments aside, I think there is some balancing act, keeping a name out of the rumor mill is more or less impossible, so disclosing a name allows things like the police focusing on protecting one person (rather than trying to figure out who needs protection), and for a lawyer to credibly make statements on behalf of the person. In some sense the problem is that society is capricious and reactionary, the behavior of the media just reflects that.
- ZanyProgrammer 11y ago
  I wonder, assuming it turns out that the engineer isn't at fault, if he can sue the Mayor afterwards for defamation.
noisy_boy 11y ago
It is quite common in India to have rocks/pebbles hurled at the trains by kids, basically as a source of amusement. Mostly happens in rural areas but I've seen it happen in more urban places as well. I've personally experienced a pebble bouncing off the window grill and miss my forhead by an inch. I remember reading about a man dying due to this few years ago but can't find the source.
ZanyProgrammer 11y ago
In the Bay Area, BART does a pretty good job of fencing off the surrounding area when its on level ground (because of the danger of the third rail). There's always a fence with some sort of razor wire on top, and no grade crossings for people to get in close to the train. I suppose it'd be possible to shoot at the train or throw objects from nearby buildings, but it'd require a lot more luck and skill.
- jkot 11y ago
  Hm, and if there is accident and someone needs to get to the train?
  - njharman 11y ago
    Most someones responding to train accident have bolt/wire cutters, jaws of life, etc. But, yes most random good Samaritans would be impeded. Not sure if that is bad thing.
    - mschuster91 11y ago
      > But, yes most random good Samaritans would be impeded. Not sure if that is bad thing. When dealing with ground-level third rails for power, then absolutely: yes, this is good. Because unexperienced/panicking people might not know or forget about the power rail - and in contrast to an overhead line, a rail can carry significantly more current...
  - ZanyProgrammer 11y ago
    there are access gates, I think, for emergency vehicles (as well as maintenance).
kw71 11y ago
I take issue with the lack of positive train controls but moreso with the facts reported in the final paragraph. I was under the impression that locomotives had dead-man switches. The last paragraph implies that either the locomotive did not have a deadman switch or that maintaining it becomes so automatic for the operator that he mindlessly kept it up during his state of shock. In light of all the difficulty reported in installing the positive train controls which rely on trackside signalling equipment, I don't see why a GPS based train control system is not feasable, or at least one that gives instructions or sounds alarms in the cab. I'm only a layperson when it comes to locomotives, but my 2007 model Garmin GPS nav does tell me what speed limits are on nearly every road and warns me of upcoming turns.
- maxerickson 11y ago
  This article mentions the locomotive model and an alerter that beeps after a period of no input: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-amtrak-train-that-crashed-in-philadelphia-accelerated-the-minute-before-it-derailed-2015-5 http://www.businessinsider.com/the-amtrak-train-that-crashed... The Wikipedia page for the locomotive does not discuss the control system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak_Cities_Sprinter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak_Cities_Sprinter Nor do a couple of the pamphlets listed in the sources there. Do you have a more concrete source for the deadman switch?
- pm24601 11y ago
  Its more than GPS. Much more than that: 1) which track is the train on? GPS off by a few meters 1 way or the other means a different track. 2) What are the switch settings ahead? 3) Is there a train stopped ahead? 4) Is there any obstruction ( i.e. rock fall )? 5) Are the crossing gates ahead properly functioning? 6) Are there vehicles across the crossing ahead? 7) What are the normal speed restrictions in place? 8) Are there maintenance workers ahead? 9) Are there temporary speed restrictions in place because of tracks needing repair? 10) What is the mass of the train? Heavier trains = greater stopping distance. 11) What is the track surface - leaves in the fall can create a biofilm that increases stopping distance. 12) What is the cargo - some cargo requires more gradual deceleration - bottles of wine anyone? 13) What about tunnels? 14) What about mountainous terrain with poor line of sight to GPS satellites? 15) What about signals that may interfere with a GPS fix? 16) What about going through cities with buildings and in trenches? Expanding on a few additional points: "Where is the train in front of this train"? a) Its not enough to know where the locomotive is: some freight trains can be 2 miles long. So if the train in front is 2 miles ahead but is a passenger train - no problem. A freight train? Big problem. b) Is the train ahead on a siding that the current train will not hit because the switch is thrown to transfer to another track> "What is the allowed speed?" a) Is the train going to take a speed restricted curve? b) Or continuing straight at a higher speed? c) How fast can the train decelerate - freight is slower than passenger trains. In a car its annoying -but having a train get confused and go into an emergency stop - that is something else. Can your Garmin do any of this?

34 points by joshrotenberg 11y ago

mschuster91 11y ago

In Munich, some years ago, ALEX trains used to arrive at the station with bullet holes in the carriages...

tormeh 11y ago
Why?
- mschuster91 11y ago
  Can't really find anything, as in 2011 an unrelated shooting (two guys on the run noticed cops doing a routine check of other guests and decided to shoot the cops in cold blood; only casualty was one of the guys because he jumped the train at 100+ kph) happened in an ALEX train and that drowns out the older stuff in Google. But if memory serves me right it was some nutcase with an illegal rifle.
- mschuster91 11y ago
  Okay, I found something (http://www.merkur.de/lokales/muenchen/stadt-muenchen/unbekannter-schiesst-express-zuege-79380.html http://www.merkur.de/lokales/muenchen/stadt-muenchen/unbekan...), the trains got shot at two times, and multiple acts of sabotage and vandalism occurred. Nothing about the outcome of all this, though.

moron4hire 11y ago

This is why I moved out of Philadelphia. Not at all surprised. If this turns out to be true, nobody will be. And just another wonderful example of why news organizations shouldn't print the names of people thought to be at fault until they learn the truth. Mayor Nutter had been saying some nasty things about this conductor and I'm sure a lot of people have picked up on it and have decided for themselves he killed those seven people. We don't know yet what happened. It was irresponsible journalism to print his name.

maxerickson 11y ago
The media is incredibly ghoulish. The mayor's comments aside, I think there is some balancing act, keeping a name out of the rumor mill is more or less impossible, so disclosing a name allows things like the police focusing on protecting one person (rather than trying to figure out who needs protection), and for a lawyer to credibly make statements on behalf of the person. In some sense the problem is that society is capricious and reactionary, the behavior of the media just reflects that.
ZanyProgrammer 11y ago
I wonder, assuming it turns out that the engineer isn't at fault, if he can sue the Mayor afterwards for defamation.

noisy_boy 11y ago

It is quite common in India to have rocks/pebbles hurled at the trains by kids, basically as a source of amusement. Mostly happens in rural areas but I've seen it happen in more urban places as well. I've personally experienced a pebble bouncing off the window grill and miss my forhead by an inch. I remember reading about a man dying due to this few years ago but can't find the source.

ZanyProgrammer 11y ago

In the Bay Area, BART does a pretty good job of fencing off the surrounding area when its on level ground (because of the danger of the third rail). There's always a fence with some sort of razor wire on top, and no grade crossings for people to get in close to the train. I suppose it'd be possible to shoot at the train or throw objects from nearby buildings, but it'd require a lot more luck and skill.

jkot 11y ago
Hm, and if there is accident and someone needs to get to the train?
- njharman 11y ago
  Most someones responding to train accident have bolt/wire cutters, jaws of life, etc. But, yes most random good Samaritans would be impeded. Not sure if that is bad thing.
  - mschuster91 11y ago
    > But, yes most random good Samaritans would be impeded. Not sure if that is bad thing. When dealing with ground-level third rails for power, then absolutely: yes, this is good. Because unexperienced/panicking people might not know or forget about the power rail - and in contrast to an overhead line, a rail can carry significantly more current...
- ZanyProgrammer 11y ago
  there are access gates, I think, for emergency vehicles (as well as maintenance).

kw71 11y ago

I take issue with the lack of positive train controls but moreso with the facts reported in the final paragraph. I was under the impression that locomotives had dead-man switches. The last paragraph implies that either the locomotive did not have a deadman switch or that maintaining it becomes so automatic for the operator that he mindlessly kept it up during his state of shock. In light of all the difficulty reported in installing the positive train controls which rely on trackside signalling equipment, I don't see why a GPS based train control system is not feasable, or at least one that gives instructions or sounds alarms in the cab. I'm only a layperson when it comes to locomotives, but my 2007 model Garmin GPS nav does tell me what speed limits are on nearly every road and warns me of upcoming turns.

maxerickson 11y ago
This article mentions the locomotive model and an alerter that beeps after a period of no input: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-amtrak-train-that-crashed-in-philadelphia-accelerated-the-minute-before-it-derailed-2015-5 http://www.businessinsider.com/the-amtrak-train-that-crashed... The Wikipedia page for the locomotive does not discuss the control system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak_Cities_Sprinter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amtrak_Cities_Sprinter Nor do a couple of the pamphlets listed in the sources there. Do you have a more concrete source for the deadman switch?
pm24601 11y ago
Its more than GPS. Much more than that: 1) which track is the train on? GPS off by a few meters 1 way or the other means a different track. 2) What are the switch settings ahead? 3) Is there a train stopped ahead? 4) Is there any obstruction ( i.e. rock fall )? 5) Are the crossing gates ahead properly functioning? 6) Are there vehicles across the crossing ahead? 7) What are the normal speed restrictions in place? 8) Are there maintenance workers ahead? 9) Are there temporary speed restrictions in place because of tracks needing repair? 10) What is the mass of the train? Heavier trains = greater stopping distance. 11) What is the track surface - leaves in the fall can create a biofilm that increases stopping distance. 12) What is the cargo - some cargo requires more gradual deceleration - bottles of wine anyone? 13) What about tunnels? 14) What about mountainous terrain with poor line of sight to GPS satellites? 15) What about signals that may interfere with a GPS fix? 16) What about going through cities with buildings and in trenches? Expanding on a few additional points: "Where is the train in front of this train"? a) Its not enough to know where the locomotive is: some freight trains can be 2 miles long. So if the train in front is 2 miles ahead but is a passenger train - no problem. A freight train? Big problem. b) Is the train ahead on a siding that the current train will not hit because the switch is thrown to transfer to another track> "What is the allowed speed?" a) Is the train going to take a speed restricted curve? b) Or continuing straight at a higher speed? c) How fast can the train decelerate - freight is slower than passenger trains. In a car its annoying -but having a train get confused and go into an emergency stop - that is something else. Can your Garmin do any of this?