5 ms·

I am firmly in the other camp when it comes to the common theme on here that anything above a 40 hour workweek is a sign of poor management of time and people.

I am firmly in the other camp when it comes to the common theme on here that anything above a 40 hour workweek is a sign of poor management of time and people. It's one thing to be forced to do those work hours against one's will, and I'll grant that doing so is bad business practice. However, when you are working in a startup environment, especially if you're burning through other people's money, there should be a fire lit under your ass. A few weeks ago, my startup[1] did a crunch mode week before releasing our beta to the first set of users. We had promised access to the application on a certain day, and I am absolutely never going to be convinced that missing a deadline that you've promised someone else is an okay thing to do, as the article suggests as a form of self-punishment. In doing so, I did a few things in order to take care of my one employee. First, I said that lunch and dinner would be covered by the company, since we were both staying there until the nighttime hours. Second, I made a Costco run and got us anything would could need to snack on or drink during the week (not very expensive when you're buying for two people). Third, immediately following our successful launch on a Monday, he had Tuesday and Friday off. It's very important that when you're not on crunch that it feels like you're not on crunch, and you "make up" for the time that you burned through. I am always of the opinion that if you're not willing to put in a ton of hours, there's someone just as smart and focused as you that is. I think my perspective has been forever changed, though, because I've been on deployments where we worked 12 hours a day for 9 months straight with no holidays, doing knowledge work I might add. Becoming accustomed to that makes everything that comes after it seem incredibly easy. Both my employee and I feel incredibly lucky to be working on something that we both really believe has a chance to succeed greatly, and it is so much a part of our lives that when we're not at work we're thinking of more ways we can improve our product. When you're that deep into an idea, be it a business, hobby, love interest, etc., the amount of time you spend on it always seems like not enough. I think people bristling about long work hours are doing so because they haven't found something that makes them feel this way. [1] http://pleenq.com http://pleenq.com

joesmo 11y ago
"I think people bristling about long work hours are doing so because they haven't found something that makes them feel this way." Or maybe they just don't like being forced to work for free. What you're saying is that employees should be glad that they get a chance to work overtime for free. They should be glad to be victims in other words. That's just insane.
- lostcolony 11y ago
  Well, he -did- say "I am always of the opinion that if you're not willing to put in a ton of hours, there's someone just as smart and focused at you that is." Mind you, another wise man once said "there's a sucker born every minute", and psychologists have identified Stockholm Syndrome as being a thing, so he could be right.
  - joesmo 11y ago
    It's likely there is someone just as smart and focused as me that is willing to put in the long hours. The problem is finding that person, and once you find that person and you work them to the bone for a couple of weeks, they will not be as smart or as focused no matter where they started out at. They will continue to deteriorate till their output is of lower quality than average, even if they were brilliant at first. This is the point most manager, founders, owners, and executives that support working their employees overtime intentionally miss. There is no way a human being can keep up quality work being sleep deprived and working around the clock. Even a little sleep deprivation and a bit of extra overtime will take its toll after a few weeks. That will happen even if you pay employees overtime, which most companies and proponents of overtime are vehemently against because the real reason they demand it is because they want to exploit free labor along the lines of temporary slavery. No wonder there is so much shitty code out there, especially at startups and other companies that love to overwork their employees without paying them. Then they call it "technical debt," as if there was anything technical about depriving employees of sleep, health, and their life outside the company. And finally, to top it all off, they want us, the employees, to enjoy being worked overtime and having our health ruined and our time stolen. The delusions of management and executives in this area is incredible. But I don't think it's fair to call employees willing to subject themselves to this suckers, only the ones who do so knowingly and willingly. Many people simply don't have other choices or have other obligations (family, mortgage) that make changing jobs difficult. Others, especially young people, just don't realize what they're doing to themselves until they burn out or are too caught up in the social "coolness" of it.
nmrm2 11y ago
Out of pure curiousity, 1) how many extra hours did your employee work (i.e. over an 8 hour work day)? 2) if extra hours > 16, how do you feel about that? (FYI as an employee I'm pretty eye-rolly if I get a day off as a "favor" after burning >=8 hours in "over time" -- the = is important!)
7Figures2Commas 11y ago
> However, when you are working in a startup environment, especially if you're burning through other people's money, there should be a fire lit under your ass. "Fire lit under your ass" doesn't mean "work 16 hours a day." If you want to succeed, you should be focused on producing and maximizing the right outputs, not measuring time worked, which is simply an input. > I am always of the opinion that if you're not willing to put in a ton of hours, there's someone just as smart and focused at you that is. That might be true, but can you recruit and retain those smart and focused people? In today's market, the talented and experienced have options. Unless you're offering top-notch salary and benefits, chances are you're not going to be able to retain and recruit the best people while demanding they live in a constant crunch mode. They don't have to subject themselves to this to earn a good living. > Both my employee and I feel incredibly lucky to be working on something that we both really believe has a chance to succeed greatly, and it is so much a part of our lives that when we're not at work we're thinking of more ways we can improve our product. When you're that deep into an idea, be it a business, hobby, love interest, etc., the amount of time you spend on it always seems like not enough. I think people bristling about long work hours are doing so because they haven't found something that makes them feel this way. Is it not possible that people bristling about long work hours are doing so because they have other interests in life besides work? While your earliest employees should drink a little bit of kool aid, as you scale a company you can't reasonably expect your employees to be as invested as you are. And you should be mindful of the fact that the people who provide the level of dedication you seem to be looking for are often the ones who burn out and become the most disillusioned and resentful when you hit the inevitable bumps in the road.
- fredkbloggs 11y ago
  > > I am always of the opinion that if you're not willing to put in a ton of hours, there's someone just as smart and focused at you that is. > That might be true, but can you recruit and retain those smart and focused people? There's also the problem that after a month or two of 60-hour weeks, that person will be less productive than someone who works 40-50 every week and saves emergency mode for the rare genuine emergency. So even if you can attract and retain that person, you'll be overpaying for shoddy work. It's a wonderful economic outcome, in which both parties are suckers.
lostcolony 11y ago
To point out, "A few weeks ago, my startup did a crunch mode week before releasing our beta to the first set of users." You did -one week- of crunch. That's not what the article is speaking to. You're talking that "if you're not willing to put in a ton of hours", "my employee and I feel incredibly lucky", etc etc etc, but you only pulled a -week- of crunch. This isn't talking about where your down time outside of work sometimes incorporates thoughts of "what could we do better at work?", nor is it talking about "We're so close; if we just work a little longer this week we'll hit this deadline, learn from it, and can take a break right after", it's talking about the repeated pattern in some places of crunch mode all the time, > 40 hours a week for multiple weeks, which research has shown will lead to negative performance.
bsg75 11y ago
> I think people bristling about long work hours are doing so because they haven't found something that makes them feel this way. Or they are not in a position where they stand to profit in proportion to the extra work. Extra time with out extra compensation means the employee's individual ROI drops, and that is not something a smart person should accept on an ongoing basis.
cunac 11y ago
your first mistake was to promise arbitrary date for delivery without any data to support that; that is what a common folk call wishful thinking. It never works. Being passionate about something doesn't mean you have to kill yourself working. It sounds to me that you are fairly young and IMNSHO if you are smart you should know not to put ton of hours and have things done. Quantity of hours put into a product doesn't correlate with a quality
clavalle 11y ago
This attitude is incredibly short sighted. No one is suggesting that you just miss deadlines. The suggestion is that you get better at setting deadlines. You may be living and breathing your exciting project but, really, how many lives were saved by setting such an aggressive deadline? How many businesses did you save from bankruptcy? If your own, then you might want to think harder about saner financial planning as well. Very few projects need to rush to the finish line to be successful. You live and breathe an exciting project. I get it. But how is the quality of your thought process affected by pushing yourself to the limit everyday? People need space to think. People need space to see outside of their obsession. Not allowing for that misses opportunities or, worse, puts you in a position to be surprised by something outside of that obsession. The rest of us aren't stupid. Many of us are seasoned. We realize that one must be wary of obsession because keeping your mind in one mode for too long makes it very hard to move from that mode or even eventually realize that other modes exist. And, make no mistake, eventually reality will force a change. The question is, will you be cultivating the flexibility to deal well with it or will you be stuck in one mode? You're running a marathon, not a sprint. Let your demons drive you but make sure you can take the reins back when you need to.
alkonaut 11y ago
It's not me who wants lunch, dinner and snacks. It's my kids! Want me to pull an 80h week? I'd be delighted, just pick my kids up at daycare at 4.30, make sure they wash their hands after dinner and be ready for a bit of mayhem when it's time for bed. Joking aside, I have only sold 40h of my week, not because I wouldn't be happy to sell you more hours but because the rest are already sold.

joesmo 11y ago

"I think people bristling about long work hours are doing so because they haven't found something that makes them feel this way." Or maybe they just don't like being forced to work for free. What you're saying is that employees should be glad that they get a chance to work overtime for free. They should be glad to be victims in other words. That's just insane.

lostcolony 11y ago
Well, he -did- say "I am always of the opinion that if you're not willing to put in a ton of hours, there's someone just as smart and focused at you that is." Mind you, another wise man once said "there's a sucker born every minute", and psychologists have identified Stockholm Syndrome as being a thing, so he could be right.
- joesmo 11y ago
  It's likely there is someone just as smart and focused as me that is willing to put in the long hours. The problem is finding that person, and once you find that person and you work them to the bone for a couple of weeks, they will not be as smart or as focused no matter where they started out at. They will continue to deteriorate till their output is of lower quality than average, even if they were brilliant at first. This is the point most manager, founders, owners, and executives that support working their employees overtime intentionally miss. There is no way a human being can keep up quality work being sleep deprived and working around the clock. Even a little sleep deprivation and a bit of extra overtime will take its toll after a few weeks. That will happen even if you pay employees overtime, which most companies and proponents of overtime are vehemently against because the real reason they demand it is because they want to exploit free labor along the lines of temporary slavery. No wonder there is so much shitty code out there, especially at startups and other companies that love to overwork their employees without paying them. Then they call it "technical debt," as if there was anything technical about depriving employees of sleep, health, and their life outside the company. And finally, to top it all off, they want us, the employees, to enjoy being worked overtime and having our health ruined and our time stolen. The delusions of management and executives in this area is incredible. But I don't think it's fair to call employees willing to subject themselves to this suckers, only the ones who do so knowingly and willingly. Many people simply don't have other choices or have other obligations (family, mortgage) that make changing jobs difficult. Others, especially young people, just don't realize what they're doing to themselves until they burn out or are too caught up in the social "coolness" of it.

nmrm2 11y ago

Out of pure curiousity, 1) how many extra hours did your employee work (i.e. over an 8 hour work day)? 2) if extra hours > 16, how do you feel about that? (FYI as an employee I'm pretty eye-rolly if I get a day off as a "favor" after burning >=8 hours in "over time" -- the = is important!)

7Figures2Commas 11y ago

> However, when you are working in a startup environment, especially if you're burning through other people's money, there should be a fire lit under your ass. "Fire lit under your ass" doesn't mean "work 16 hours a day." If you want to succeed, you should be focused on producing and maximizing the right outputs, not measuring time worked, which is simply an input. > I am always of the opinion that if you're not willing to put in a ton of hours, there's someone just as smart and focused at you that is. That might be true, but can you recruit and retain those smart and focused people? In today's market, the talented and experienced have options. Unless you're offering top-notch salary and benefits, chances are you're not going to be able to retain and recruit the best people while demanding they live in a constant crunch mode. They don't have to subject themselves to this to earn a good living. > Both my employee and I feel incredibly lucky to be working on something that we both really believe has a chance to succeed greatly, and it is so much a part of our lives that when we're not at work we're thinking of more ways we can improve our product. When you're that deep into an idea, be it a business, hobby, love interest, etc., the amount of time you spend on it always seems like not enough. I think people bristling about long work hours are doing so because they haven't found something that makes them feel this way. Is it not possible that people bristling about long work hours are doing so because they have other interests in life besides work? While your earliest employees should drink a little bit of kool aid, as you scale a company you can't reasonably expect your employees to be as invested as you are. And you should be mindful of the fact that the people who provide the level of dedication you seem to be looking for are often the ones who burn out and become the most disillusioned and resentful when you hit the inevitable bumps in the road.

fredkbloggs 11y ago
> > I am always of the opinion that if you're not willing to put in a ton of hours, there's someone just as smart and focused at you that is. > That might be true, but can you recruit and retain those smart and focused people? There's also the problem that after a month or two of 60-hour weeks, that person will be less productive than someone who works 40-50 every week and saves emergency mode for the rare genuine emergency. So even if you can attract and retain that person, you'll be overpaying for shoddy work. It's a wonderful economic outcome, in which both parties are suckers.

lostcolony 11y ago

To point out, "A few weeks ago, my startup did a crunch mode week before releasing our beta to the first set of users." You did -one week- of crunch. That's not what the article is speaking to. You're talking that "if you're not willing to put in a ton of hours", "my employee and I feel incredibly lucky", etc etc etc, but you only pulled a -week- of crunch. This isn't talking about where your down time outside of work sometimes incorporates thoughts of "what could we do better at work?", nor is it talking about "We're so close; if we just work a little longer this week we'll hit this deadline, learn from it, and can take a break right after", it's talking about the repeated pattern in some places of crunch mode all the time, > 40 hours a week for multiple weeks, which research has shown will lead to negative performance.

bsg75 11y ago

> I think people bristling about long work hours are doing so because they haven't found something that makes them feel this way. Or they are not in a position where they stand to profit in proportion to the extra work. Extra time with out extra compensation means the employee's individual ROI drops, and that is not something a smart person should accept on an ongoing basis.

cunac 11y ago

your first mistake was to promise arbitrary date for delivery without any data to support that; that is what a common folk call wishful thinking. It never works. Being passionate about something doesn't mean you have to kill yourself working. It sounds to me that you are fairly young and IMNSHO if you are smart you should know not to put ton of hours and have things done. Quantity of hours put into a product doesn't correlate with a quality

clavalle 11y ago

This attitude is incredibly short sighted. No one is suggesting that you just miss deadlines. The suggestion is that you get better at setting deadlines. You may be living and breathing your exciting project but, really, how many lives were saved by setting such an aggressive deadline? How many businesses did you save from bankruptcy? If your own, then you might want to think harder about saner financial planning as well. Very few projects need to rush to the finish line to be successful. You live and breathe an exciting project. I get it. But how is the quality of your thought process affected by pushing yourself to the limit everyday? People need space to think. People need space to see outside of their obsession. Not allowing for that misses opportunities or, worse, puts you in a position to be surprised by something outside of that obsession. The rest of us aren't stupid. Many of us are seasoned. We realize that one must be wary of obsession because keeping your mind in one mode for too long makes it very hard to move from that mode or even eventually realize that other modes exist. And, make no mistake, eventually reality will force a change. The question is, will you be cultivating the flexibility to deal well with it or will you be stuck in one mode? You're running a marathon, not a sprint. Let your demons drive you but make sure you can take the reins back when you need to.

alkonaut 11y ago

It's not me who wants lunch, dinner and snacks. It's my kids! Want me to pull an 80h week? I'd be delighted, just pick my kids up at daycare at 4.30, make sure they wash their hands after dinner and be ready for a bit of mayhem when it's time for bed. Joking aside, I have only sold 40h of my week, not because I wouldn't be happy to sell you more hours but because the rest are already sold.