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The claim is that top ranking officials believe they are waging a traditionalist "Holy War" against Islam. I don't know if your obsession with Catholic or mili

The claim is that top ranking officials believe they are waging a traditionalist "Holy War" against Islam. I don't know if your obsession with Catholic or military trinkets is simple misinterpretation or deliberate obfuscation. Hersh never made the claim which you put "in quotes". And it's disingenuous to claim he did. If top generals believe they are fighting a Crusade, that's newsworthy. If you want to address that narrative, I'd be interested to hear what you have to say. But as it stands, the strawman you're arguing against has no basis in Hersh's words or viewpoint.

dang 11y ago
> maybe try reddit or something Please keep criticism civil and substantive on HN, even when responding to a straw man. Edit: Actually, for an intensely political thread, the discussion here is doing relatively well.
- sroerick 11y ago
  My apologies. You're absolutely right and I've edited the post to be more civil. As a matter of honesty, my post originally said: > If you want to keep making up strawmen to argue against Hersh, maybe try reddit or something. I do apologize to mpyne, and want to thank him and everyone involved for maintaining one of the best discussion forums on the internet.
mpyne 11y ago
> I don't know if your obsession with Catholic or military trinkets is simple misinterpretation or deliberate obfuscation. Hersh never made the claim which you put "in quotes". And it's disingenuous to claim he did. From http://foreignpolicy.com/2011/01/18/seymour-hersh-unleashed/ http://foreignpolicy.com/2011/01/18/seymour-hersh-unleashed/ (which, while paywalled, is only one of many sources you could easily Google), they quote Hersh as saying, among other things: “They have little insignias, these coins they pass among each other, which are crusader coins,” he continued. “They have insignia that reflect the whole notion that this is a culture war. … Right now, there’s a tremendous, tremendous amount of anti-Muslim feeling in the military community.” I'll note that when I mentioned Hersh's alarm about 'crusade coins' (I'm sorry I missed the 'r'), you said that not only was it my obsession, but that it could have been a deliberate obfuscation attempt on my part, along with being disingenuous. Disingenuous to claim something that's actually true! What a world! > If top generals believe they are fighting a Crusade, that's newsworthy. Religious people will often perceive the world they live in through the perspective of their religion. When top generals start taking the nation into harm's way for their own pet religious principles then by all means, sound the alarm. Until then, as long as they're doing the 'right' thing by the country to the best of their professional (as opposed to religious) judgment and don't try to force their religion on subordinates (as the Air Force Academy has been actually accused of doing) then I don't give a shit what God they pray to or how they make that relationship work. > strawman Please, by all means, go talk to Seymour about his own words, which are apparently a figment of my spotty imagination.
- mcantelon 11y ago
  Not sure why a specific challenge coin could not also simultaneously serve as a symbol of an effort such as a "crusade".
  - mpyne 11y ago
    Might they make specific challenge coins for specific operations within whatever we're calling the 'war on terror' nowadays? Absolutely, and some of those coins might even be vaguely offensive. But unless these coins were actually evidence of some sort of JSOC conspiracy to loop in Pope Benedict on U.S. counter-terror operations then why were they worth the attention of the Great Man who popularized My Lai and Abu Ghraib? I'll leave open for now the question of why a group of people who certainly know better would procure hard physical evidence of their nefarious misdeeds instead of executing the professional conspiracy that any snake-eater should be able to handle if they really wanted to. Since this is Seymour's world now we needn't concern ourselves with trying to find contrary evidence that would disprove Hersh's assertions, and then demonstrating why that evidence isn't actually problematic. Why, Seymour has told us this must be true, and that's all we need to know.
- sroerick 11y ago
  You've written 450 words now without ever addressing the actual claim made by Hersh, which is that major military figures believe they are waging a crusade. > "Opus Dei secretly in control of (or heavily influencing) America's special operations arm" This is the claim I was referring to. And it is a strawman.

dang 11y ago

> maybe try reddit or something Please keep criticism civil and substantive on HN, even when responding to a straw man. Edit: Actually, for an intensely political thread, the discussion here is doing relatively well.

sroerick 11y ago
My apologies. You're absolutely right and I've edited the post to be more civil. As a matter of honesty, my post originally said: > If you want to keep making up strawmen to argue against Hersh, maybe try reddit or something. I do apologize to mpyne, and want to thank him and everyone involved for maintaining one of the best discussion forums on the internet.

mpyne 11y ago

> I don't know if your obsession with Catholic or military trinkets is simple misinterpretation or deliberate obfuscation. Hersh never made the claim which you put "in quotes". And it's disingenuous to claim he did. From http://foreignpolicy.com/2011/01/18/seymour-hersh-unleashed/ http://foreignpolicy.com/2011/01/18/seymour-hersh-unleashed/ (which, while paywalled, is only one of many sources you could easily Google), they quote Hersh as saying, among other things: “They have little insignias, these coins they pass among each other, which are crusader coins,” he continued. “They have insignia that reflect the whole notion that this is a culture war. … Right now, there’s a tremendous, tremendous amount of anti-Muslim feeling in the military community.” I'll note that when I mentioned Hersh's alarm about 'crusade coins' (I'm sorry I missed the 'r'), you said that not only was it my obsession, but that it could have been a deliberate obfuscation attempt on my part, along with being disingenuous. Disingenuous to claim something that's actually true! What a world! > If top generals believe they are fighting a Crusade, that's newsworthy. Religious people will often perceive the world they live in through the perspective of their religion. When top generals start taking the nation into harm's way for their own pet religious principles then by all means, sound the alarm. Until then, as long as they're doing the 'right' thing by the country to the best of their professional (as opposed to religious) judgment and don't try to force their religion on subordinates (as the Air Force Academy has been actually accused of doing) then I don't give a shit what God they pray to or how they make that relationship work. > strawman Please, by all means, go talk to Seymour about his own words, which are apparently a figment of my spotty imagination.

mcantelon 11y ago
Not sure why a specific challenge coin could not also simultaneously serve as a symbol of an effort such as a "crusade".
- mpyne 11y ago
  Might they make specific challenge coins for specific operations within whatever we're calling the 'war on terror' nowadays? Absolutely, and some of those coins might even be vaguely offensive. But unless these coins were actually evidence of some sort of JSOC conspiracy to loop in Pope Benedict on U.S. counter-terror operations then why were they worth the attention of the Great Man who popularized My Lai and Abu Ghraib? I'll leave open for now the question of why a group of people who certainly know better would procure hard physical evidence of their nefarious misdeeds instead of executing the professional conspiracy that any snake-eater should be able to handle if they really wanted to. Since this is Seymour's world now we needn't concern ourselves with trying to find contrary evidence that would disprove Hersh's assertions, and then demonstrating why that evidence isn't actually problematic. Why, Seymour has told us this must be true, and that's all we need to know.
sroerick 11y ago
You've written 450 words now without ever addressing the actual claim made by Hersh, which is that major military figures believe they are waging a crusade. > "Opus Dei secretly in control of (or heavily influencing) America's special operations arm" This is the claim I was referring to. And it is a strawman.