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He didn't claim that they had been "infiltrated". He simply claimed a few high ranking generals were members. The narrative he was trying to create was that th

He didn't claim that they had been "infiltrated". He simply claimed a few high ranking generals were members. The narrative he was trying to create was that the military literally considers our presence in the Middle East as a crusade, in the historical sense. And frankly, I don't think this is too far off. George Bush used "crusade/holy war" rhetoric both publicly and (reportedly) in private. Religious indoctrination in the army is rampant. Eric Prince of Blackwater has been accused by former employees of trying to start a Crusade. So what's your counter narrative? The higher-ups in JSOC and the military are all reasonable secular humanists? The Pope is a member of the Jesuit order. This doesn't mean that the Jesuits have "infiltrated Catholicism", it just means the Pope is a Jesuit. If you think that Opus Dei and the Knights of Malta are "shadowy conspiracy groups", you need to stop reading Dan Brown books, and start embracing the fact that other people have different ideologies. As far as your "appeal to authority" is concerned, yes, that's exactly what it is. That's how journalism works. Anonymous sources get quoted all the time for pro-military stories. Deal with it. Would you have criticized Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein for using "anonymous sources"? Part of good investigative journalism is relying on the reputation of established journalists. And while you're right that this is an appeal to authority, your argument is nothing more than an ad hominem designed to discredit the narrative Hersh has created.

twic 11y ago
Eric, Prince of Blackwater? Sounds at least a little bit Crusade-ish.
- 67726e 11y ago
  That wold be Erik Prince, the founder of Blackwater and a former commissioned officer in the Navy SEALs. The book "Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army"[0] paints a pretty solid picture of his Crusade mindset. [0] - http://www.amazon.com/Blackwater-Rise-Worlds-Powerful-Mercenary-ebook/dp/B0097CYTYA http://www.amazon.com/Blackwater-Rise-Worlds-Powerful-Mercen...
  - deckiedan 11y ago
    Which was renamed to Xe for a while in 2009 or so, and now is called 'Academi', and part of the Constellis group. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academi
mpyne 11y ago
> He simply claimed a few high ranking generals were members. He also claimed that JSOC was passing around "crusade coins" as part of their religious "crusade". I don't know how he got 'crusade coins' from something completely benign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenge_coin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenge_coin) but that's the kind of "journalism" we've been receiving from Hersh in the past few years. Besides which, if your interpretation of Hersh's comments were true then they simply wouldn't be news at all. "Some members of a typically-conservative organization are also members of a separate typically-conservative organization" is hardly worth a mention at all. On the other hand the implied story "Opus Dei secretly in control of (or heavily influencing) America's special operations arm" would be news, Sy Hersh-winning-a-Pulitzer kind of news... if it were true. The comment you replied to wasn't claiming anything sinister about Opus Dei, that honor goes to Hersh himself.
- sroerick 11y ago
  The claim is that top ranking officials believe they are waging a traditionalist "Holy War" against Islam. I don't know if your obsession with Catholic or military trinkets is simple misinterpretation or deliberate obfuscation. Hersh never made the claim which you put "in quotes". And it's disingenuous to claim he did. If top generals believe they are fighting a Crusade, that's newsworthy. If you want to address that narrative, I'd be interested to hear what you have to say. But as it stands, the strawman you're arguing against has no basis in Hersh's words or viewpoint.
  - dang 11y ago
    > maybe try reddit or something Please keep criticism civil and substantive on HN, even when responding to a straw man. Edit: Actually, for an intensely political thread, the discussion here is doing relatively well.
    - sroerick 11y ago
      My apologies. You're absolutely right and I've edited the post to be more civil. As a matter of honesty, my post originally said: > If you want to keep making up strawmen to argue against Hersh, maybe try reddit or something. I do apologize to mpyne, and want to thank him and everyone involved for maintaining one of the best discussion forums on the internet.

twic 11y ago

Eric, Prince of Blackwater? Sounds at least a little bit Crusade-ish.

67726e 11y ago
That wold be Erik Prince, the founder of Blackwater and a former commissioned officer in the Navy SEALs. The book "Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army"[0] paints a pretty solid picture of his Crusade mindset. [0] - http://www.amazon.com/Blackwater-Rise-Worlds-Powerful-Mercenary-ebook/dp/B0097CYTYA http://www.amazon.com/Blackwater-Rise-Worlds-Powerful-Mercen...
- deckiedan 11y ago
  Which was renamed to Xe for a while in 2009 or so, and now is called 'Academi', and part of the Constellis group. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academi

mpyne 11y ago

> He simply claimed a few high ranking generals were members. He also claimed that JSOC was passing around "crusade coins" as part of their religious "crusade". I don't know how he got 'crusade coins' from something completely benign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenge_coin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenge_coin) but that's the kind of "journalism" we've been receiving from Hersh in the past few years. Besides which, if your interpretation of Hersh's comments were true then they simply wouldn't be news at all. "Some members of a typically-conservative organization are also members of a separate typically-conservative organization" is hardly worth a mention at all. On the other hand the implied story "Opus Dei secretly in control of (or heavily influencing) America's special operations arm" would be news, Sy Hersh-winning-a-Pulitzer kind of news... if it were true. The comment you replied to wasn't claiming anything sinister about Opus Dei, that honor goes to Hersh himself.

sroerick 11y ago
The claim is that top ranking officials believe they are waging a traditionalist "Holy War" against Islam. I don't know if your obsession with Catholic or military trinkets is simple misinterpretation or deliberate obfuscation. Hersh never made the claim which you put "in quotes". And it's disingenuous to claim he did. If top generals believe they are fighting a Crusade, that's newsworthy. If you want to address that narrative, I'd be interested to hear what you have to say. But as it stands, the strawman you're arguing against has no basis in Hersh's words or viewpoint.
- dang 11y ago
  > maybe try reddit or something Please keep criticism civil and substantive on HN, even when responding to a straw man. Edit: Actually, for an intensely political thread, the discussion here is doing relatively well.
  - sroerick 11y ago
    My apologies. You're absolutely right and I've edited the post to be more civil. As a matter of honesty, my post originally said: > If you want to keep making up strawmen to argue against Hersh, maybe try reddit or something. I do apologize to mpyne, and want to thank him and everyone involved for maintaining one of the best discussion forums on the internet.