7 ms·

I'm not sure why I'd discuss this with some random person on the internet. If you'd like to tell me that you think I did something morally wrong, feel free to d

by n72 11y ago

I'm not sure why I'd discuss this with some random person on the internet. If you'd like to tell me that you think I did something morally wrong, feel free to do so, but have the courtesy of not disingenuously cloaking it as a question. (FWIW, I haven't been with the company since 2012.)

mb_72 11y ago
I wouldn't work for gaming company in the same way I wouldn't work for a weapons company. Poker machines cause a lot of problems to not only individuals but to families; time and again I read about someone massively in debt in the local paper or internet news, someone who often has been driven to theft or fraud to support their habit. Where I live (Adelaide, South Australia) one local politician has 'made' his career on a no-pokies stance. In addition to the gambling issues, the presence of poker machines in my city has help kill off the live music scene. Pub owners now prefer to make their money from zombies-slot players, and the community and friendly atmosphere created by humans playing music has been practically destroyed as a result. IMO poker machines, especially, are a blight on the gaming world. I only feel lucky the dumbed-down 'game play' is nothing that would appeal to me or people I know, and personally speaking I would never want to use my software skills to help separate some of society's most vulnerable and naive from their money.
- n72 11y ago
  Thank you for being straight forward with your criticism. I can't say I disagree all that much. There is a legitimate other side which would argue that your stance is too paternalistic. E.g. where do we draw the line as a society to protect ourselves from ourselves? Alcoholism is a terrible and wide spread disease. Should we outlaw pubs? I'm not arguing for one side or the other, but merely that it's a rather complicated issue and the arguments on both sides should recognize that.
  - mb_72 11y ago
    I do accept that it is a complicated issue, and realise also my own attitude towards poker machines is that of a reasonably-sophisticated gamer who could never see the point in playing such 'games'. I also, perhaps fortunately, have a friend who works for a company that tests poker machine motherboards to make sure the results are 'as expected' and that they payout as per local legislation. His explanation of the statistics and 'under the hood' mechanics of how the machines work were quite eye-opening to me, and meant that the chance of me playing these machines dropped from 'maybe one day' to 'never'. I would reason that, same as for alcohol and other drugs, there should be more money directed from profits towards support for addicts. I realise it's not a good idea, in general, to be overly paternalistic in general; my statement was made more from a personal point of view in terms of what work I would or would not be involved in.
  - mercer 11y ago
    The thing is, I'd say there's a difference between seeing the arguments of both sides, and actively 'promoting' a side (by creating a game). And I think your answer doesn't really address that original question: how do you feel about being actively involved in this, especially in light of 'not disagreeing all that much'? I understand if you don't feel comfortable answering in public though. (and to be clear: while I have strong personal feelings about whether I would or should create gambling apps, I'm truly not writing this as an excuse to judge you. Doing so would be hypocritical, as there's plenty behavior in my life currently that doesn't fit my convictions.) EDIT: just noticed you've already gone into this further down in the conversation.
marincounty 11y ago
After reading some reviews of your game; you are morally irresponsible. Free advertising via 2015. "What a scam Double down Casino is. It's designed for the player to fail with low odds of winning. I've bought probably close to $100 in chips the past few months. Just bought $8.00 today to play the American Idol Slot machine and money was gone within 15 minutes. This is ridiculous. It's not like I'm winning real money back but rather looking for some entertainment. I could have paid that and enjoyed a movie for 2 hours. Will never buy another chip again and warn everyone against doing it. They get you hooked before long. I would rather go out and buy a computer casino program for $20 bucks and have endless entertainment. This company is raking in a fortune and giving nothing in return !!!!" Do I think you are a bad person--no. Do I feel too many people take advantage of the poor, depressed, and uniformed--yes. Do I feel people rationalize their behavior in the sake of money--yes.
- n72 11y ago
  Where in any of this have I rationalized my behavior? I have made no mention anywhere of what I actually think about the morality of the game or of the morality of developing it. You have no idea whether I'm ashamed of my involvement or not since I haven't revealed such.
- joesmo 11y ago
  I don't think anyone working in this industry is morally responsible for the actions of others resulting from others' free will. The review you posted is sad in that it points out the reviewer's stupidity, not industry employees' immorality. The reviewer should have gotten a free game instead of wasting money on one that requires money. But that wouldn't be gambling and money is the difference between regular video games and slot machines--that's obvious. This is how our economy and capitalism in general work. There is no room for morality in such a system (though that's not to say there shouldn't be). By your same logic, employees of health insurance companies should be held responsible for their companies actions leading to the preventable death of their customers. Employees working for aircraft companies should be held responsible for the deaths their armed fighters cause. And the guy making minimum wage at the gas station should further be held responsible for the actions of his parent company and the thousands of death they caused. These are all ridiculous things, as is expecting someone who has worked on gambling games to feel morally irresponsible for doing nothing wrong.
Klapaucius 11y ago
Well, I for one would be genuinely interested in how someone working in a field that I personally (and many with me) do find morally reprehensive (whether it be gambling, drugs, weapons, fossile fuels...) think about their role in the big picture. Do they have good arguments that I fail to see, do they not care/think too much about it, does the salary/benefits trumph any moral qualm, do they not have any other choice, etc. If you don't want to discuss it, that is fine, just pointing out that the original poster's question might not be fully rhetorical.
- n72 11y ago
  Perhaps I'm overly sensitive, but the tone seemed a bit over the top. E.g. I could have been something like "Given that you worked in a morally questionable field, does this weigh on your mind, and if not, why not?" Some very random thoughts and (sorry to yell but I know someone is going to tell me how one of these doesn't justify things but...) NONE OF THESE ARE MEANT TO JUSTIFY ANYTHING: 1. I am just a dev and had never been to a casino in my life prior to developing the game. I just took the job since I wanted to go the high risk/hard reward route. I am fully cognizant of the "I was just the accountant at Auschwitz" counter argument. I just developed the thing and had fun, frustration, and huge amounts of stress learning about things like high concurrency and such. 2. I am guilty of compartmentalizing and avoid thinking about the effects. 3. I was under the understanding that for a a while at least we were cutting people off when they spent over a certain amount. I assume at some point we stopped doing this, but avoided asking when. 4. Due to political reasons, I was sidelined and didn't have any decision making clout. I was just a dev once we grew to a certain point. 5. I'm fairly far to the left politically, but found some of the more libertarian arguments persuasive in terms of adults are adults and should be able to smoke weed, drink beer, and play slots if they want to. 6. I tell myself that with the money earned, I can now do good things for the world and any projects I do from now on will be non-profitish. I have yet to do anything of the sort. 7. It was all very gradual. If an existing casino company had tried to hire me, I would likely have not worked for them. We started off with multiplayer games like Blackjack and Roulette and the focus was on social really more than casino. It's the kind of lobster boiling problem: Since it was so gradual, it was tough to see if/when a line was crossed. 8. Casino has a particularly bad reputation. Is working for J.P. Morgan any better? What about Starbucks, which has basically built their empire on a caffeine addiction?
anigbrowl 11y ago
Come on, you chose to leave a comment here and in the context of the article it's hardly surprising that people would ask you questions about it.
thesimpsons1022 11y ago
i'm sure you have some sick sociopathic justification for it in your head.

by n72 11y ago

mb_72 11y ago

I wouldn't work for gaming company in the same way I wouldn't work for a weapons company. Poker machines cause a lot of problems to not only individuals but to families; time and again I read about someone massively in debt in the local paper or internet news, someone who often has been driven to theft or fraud to support their habit. Where I live (Adelaide, South Australia) one local politician has 'made' his career on a no-pokies stance. In addition to the gambling issues, the presence of poker machines in my city has help kill off the live music scene. Pub owners now prefer to make their money from zombies-slot players, and the community and friendly atmosphere created by humans playing music has been practically destroyed as a result. IMO poker machines, especially, are a blight on the gaming world. I only feel lucky the dumbed-down 'game play' is nothing that would appeal to me or people I know, and personally speaking I would never want to use my software skills to help separate some of society's most vulnerable and naive from their money.

n72 11y ago
Thank you for being straight forward with your criticism. I can't say I disagree all that much. There is a legitimate other side which would argue that your stance is too paternalistic. E.g. where do we draw the line as a society to protect ourselves from ourselves? Alcoholism is a terrible and wide spread disease. Should we outlaw pubs? I'm not arguing for one side or the other, but merely that it's a rather complicated issue and the arguments on both sides should recognize that.
- mb_72 11y ago
  I do accept that it is a complicated issue, and realise also my own attitude towards poker machines is that of a reasonably-sophisticated gamer who could never see the point in playing such 'games'. I also, perhaps fortunately, have a friend who works for a company that tests poker machine motherboards to make sure the results are 'as expected' and that they payout as per local legislation. His explanation of the statistics and 'under the hood' mechanics of how the machines work were quite eye-opening to me, and meant that the chance of me playing these machines dropped from 'maybe one day' to 'never'. I would reason that, same as for alcohol and other drugs, there should be more money directed from profits towards support for addicts. I realise it's not a good idea, in general, to be overly paternalistic in general; my statement was made more from a personal point of view in terms of what work I would or would not be involved in.
- mercer 11y ago
  The thing is, I'd say there's a difference between seeing the arguments of both sides, and actively 'promoting' a side (by creating a game). And I think your answer doesn't really address that original question: how do you feel about being actively involved in this, especially in light of 'not disagreeing all that much'? I understand if you don't feel comfortable answering in public though. (and to be clear: while I have strong personal feelings about whether I would or should create gambling apps, I'm truly not writing this as an excuse to judge you. Doing so would be hypocritical, as there's plenty behavior in my life currently that doesn't fit my convictions.) EDIT: just noticed you've already gone into this further down in the conversation.

marincounty 11y ago

After reading some reviews of your game; you are morally irresponsible. Free advertising via 2015. "What a scam Double down Casino is. It's designed for the player to fail with low odds of winning. I've bought probably close to $100 in chips the past few months. Just bought $8.00 today to play the American Idol Slot machine and money was gone within 15 minutes. This is ridiculous. It's not like I'm winning real money back but rather looking for some entertainment. I could have paid that and enjoyed a movie for 2 hours. Will never buy another chip again and warn everyone against doing it. They get you hooked before long. I would rather go out and buy a computer casino program for $20 bucks and have endless entertainment. This company is raking in a fortune and giving nothing in return !!!!" Do I think you are a bad person--no. Do I feel too many people take advantage of the poor, depressed, and uniformed--yes. Do I feel people rationalize their behavior in the sake of money--yes.

n72 11y ago
Where in any of this have I rationalized my behavior? I have made no mention anywhere of what I actually think about the morality of the game or of the morality of developing it. You have no idea whether I'm ashamed of my involvement or not since I haven't revealed such.
joesmo 11y ago
I don't think anyone working in this industry is morally responsible for the actions of others resulting from others' free will. The review you posted is sad in that it points out the reviewer's stupidity, not industry employees' immorality. The reviewer should have gotten a free game instead of wasting money on one that requires money. But that wouldn't be gambling and money is the difference between regular video games and slot machines--that's obvious. This is how our economy and capitalism in general work. There is no room for morality in such a system (though that's not to say there shouldn't be). By your same logic, employees of health insurance companies should be held responsible for their companies actions leading to the preventable death of their customers. Employees working for aircraft companies should be held responsible for the deaths their armed fighters cause. And the guy making minimum wage at the gas station should further be held responsible for the actions of his parent company and the thousands of death they caused. These are all ridiculous things, as is expecting someone who has worked on gambling games to feel morally irresponsible for doing nothing wrong.

Klapaucius 11y ago

Well, I for one would be genuinely interested in how someone working in a field that I personally (and many with me) do find morally reprehensive (whether it be gambling, drugs, weapons, fossile fuels...) think about their role in the big picture. Do they have good arguments that I fail to see, do they not care/think too much about it, does the salary/benefits trumph any moral qualm, do they not have any other choice, etc. If you don't want to discuss it, that is fine, just pointing out that the original poster's question might not be fully rhetorical.

n72 11y ago
Perhaps I'm overly sensitive, but the tone seemed a bit over the top. E.g. I could have been something like "Given that you worked in a morally questionable field, does this weigh on your mind, and if not, why not?" Some very random thoughts and (sorry to yell but I know someone is going to tell me how one of these doesn't justify things but...) NONE OF THESE ARE MEANT TO JUSTIFY ANYTHING: 1. I am just a dev and had never been to a casino in my life prior to developing the game. I just took the job since I wanted to go the high risk/hard reward route. I am fully cognizant of the "I was just the accountant at Auschwitz" counter argument. I just developed the thing and had fun, frustration, and huge amounts of stress learning about things like high concurrency and such. 2. I am guilty of compartmentalizing and avoid thinking about the effects. 3. I was under the understanding that for a a while at least we were cutting people off when they spent over a certain amount. I assume at some point we stopped doing this, but avoided asking when. 4. Due to political reasons, I was sidelined and didn't have any decision making clout. I was just a dev once we grew to a certain point. 5. I'm fairly far to the left politically, but found some of the more libertarian arguments persuasive in terms of adults are adults and should be able to smoke weed, drink beer, and play slots if they want to. 6. I tell myself that with the money earned, I can now do good things for the world and any projects I do from now on will be non-profitish. I have yet to do anything of the sort. 7. It was all very gradual. If an existing casino company had tried to hire me, I would likely have not worked for them. We started off with multiplayer games like Blackjack and Roulette and the focus was on social really more than casino. It's the kind of lobster boiling problem: Since it was so gradual, it was tough to see if/when a line was crossed. 8. Casino has a particularly bad reputation. Is working for J.P. Morgan any better? What about Starbucks, which has basically built their empire on a caffeine addiction?

anigbrowl 11y ago

Come on, you chose to leave a comment here and in the context of the article it's hardly surprising that people would ask you questions about it.

thesimpsons1022 11y ago

i'm sure you have some sick sociopathic justification for it in your head.