4 ms·

How can you enforce property rights and private contracts without a state? You have a contract with the richest person in the local area (aka the man with the l

How can you enforce property rights and private contracts without a state? You have a contract with the richest person in the local area (aka the man with the largest army / aka the local warlord). How do you ensure he pays when he is liable to pay? Moreover, how do you ensure he doesn't just kidnap you, and force you to work for him for free?

cbd1984 11y ago
> How can you enforce property rights and private contracts without a state? By having a state you refuse to acknowledge is a state. > the man with the largest army / aka the local warlord See? This is a state. A local warlord capable of enforcing his laws over a given region is a state. A violent, corrupt, autocratic state, to be sure, but a state nonetheless. Calling it something else doesn't make it anything else.
shit_parade2 11y ago
The richest man in town with all the guns, do you mean uncle Sam? The guy who tortures and murders innocent people without consequence, he's the guy you want to empower and trust with property rights, the guy who allows his cops to steal property without cause, that's the guy you want enforcing property rights?
praxeologist 11y ago
While states dominate history, private law has proven successful. You could see the Law Merchant throughout Europe as one example or medieval Iceland, where civil order was maintained for longer than the US has existed so far, as another. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_mercatoria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_mercatoria https://mises.org/library/medieval-iceland-and-absence-government https://mises.org/library/medieval-iceland-and-absence-gover... Regarding your other concerns see points 8 & 6 here: http://c4ss.org/content/13612 http://c4ss.org/content/13612 While I have some differences with this author, you could consider this video as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTYkdEU_B4o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTYkdEU_B4o
- Brakenshire 11y ago
  > You could see the Law Merchant throughout Europe as one example That is not an example of justice in the absence of the state. All the principal trading cities were governed, whether as city states (Venice), as quasi-independent city states within a federated league (Lubeck, Hamburg, and the other Hanseatic States) or as cities within national kingdoms (London, Ipswich and other cities under the English crown). It is an example of states agreeing to standardized laws to attract traders and provide a solid basis for ongoing trade. From the Merchant of Venice: The duke cannot deny the course of law. For the commodity that strangers have With us in Venice, if it be denied, Will much impeach the justice of his state. Since that the trade and profit of the city Consisteth of all nations. The presence of common merchant law does not mean the absense of a state.
  - praxeologist 11y ago
    I said private law, not purely anarchic examples. I could give more anarchic ones if you liked but it's revisionist history so you'd have to do a good bit of reading to really discuss it. Iceland is an example of polycentric law fairly close to what anarcho-capitalists advocate. You didn't really address that or the other points. The first big difference between the Lex Mercatoria and present-day law is the source being jurisprudence and not bureaucratic legislation. The second would be cases being torts with an identifiable victim versus today's with victimless "crimes against society". For why legislation is awful and for a hint at solutions under an eminently human system of law in a free society see these: https://www.mises.org/sites/default/files/11_2_5_0.pdf https://www.mises.org/sites/default/files/11_2_5_0.pdf http://www.walterblock.com/wp-content/uploads/publications/block_radical-libertarianism-rp.pdf http://www.walterblock.com/wp-content/uploads/publications/b...

cbd1984 11y ago

> How can you enforce property rights and private contracts without a state? By having a state you refuse to acknowledge is a state. > the man with the largest army / aka the local warlord See? This is a state. A local warlord capable of enforcing his laws over a given region is a state. A violent, corrupt, autocratic state, to be sure, but a state nonetheless. Calling it something else doesn't make it anything else.

shit_parade2 11y ago

The richest man in town with all the guns, do you mean uncle Sam? The guy who tortures and murders innocent people without consequence, he's the guy you want to empower and trust with property rights, the guy who allows his cops to steal property without cause, that's the guy you want enforcing property rights?

praxeologist 11y ago

While states dominate history, private law has proven successful. You could see the Law Merchant throughout Europe as one example or medieval Iceland, where civil order was maintained for longer than the US has existed so far, as another. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_mercatoria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_mercatoria https://mises.org/library/medieval-iceland-and-absence-government https://mises.org/library/medieval-iceland-and-absence-gover... Regarding your other concerns see points 8 & 6 here: http://c4ss.org/content/13612 http://c4ss.org/content/13612 While I have some differences with this author, you could consider this video as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTYkdEU_B4o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTYkdEU_B4o

Brakenshire 11y ago
> You could see the Law Merchant throughout Europe as one example That is not an example of justice in the absence of the state. All the principal trading cities were governed, whether as city states (Venice), as quasi-independent city states within a federated league (Lubeck, Hamburg, and the other Hanseatic States) or as cities within national kingdoms (London, Ipswich and other cities under the English crown). It is an example of states agreeing to standardized laws to attract traders and provide a solid basis for ongoing trade. From the Merchant of Venice: The duke cannot deny the course of law. For the commodity that strangers have With us in Venice, if it be denied, Will much impeach the justice of his state. Since that the trade and profit of the city Consisteth of all nations. The presence of common merchant law does not mean the absense of a state.
- praxeologist 11y ago
  I said private law, not purely anarchic examples. I could give more anarchic ones if you liked but it's revisionist history so you'd have to do a good bit of reading to really discuss it. Iceland is an example of polycentric law fairly close to what anarcho-capitalists advocate. You didn't really address that or the other points. The first big difference between the Lex Mercatoria and present-day law is the source being jurisprudence and not bureaucratic legislation. The second would be cases being torts with an identifiable victim versus today's with victimless "crimes against society". For why legislation is awful and for a hint at solutions under an eminently human system of law in a free society see these: https://www.mises.org/sites/default/files/11_2_5_0.pdf https://www.mises.org/sites/default/files/11_2_5_0.pdf http://www.walterblock.com/wp-content/uploads/publications/block_radical-libertarianism-rp.pdf http://www.walterblock.com/wp-content/uploads/publications/b...