4 ms·

Yeesh. The basis of their complaint seems to be rooted in test score (and possibly grade analysis) but they neglect the increased homogeneity that it represent

by iaw 11y ago

Yeesh. The basis of their complaint seems to be rooted in test score (and possibly grade analysis) but they neglect the increased homogeneity that it represents. Asians may have a tighter distribution of metric based qualities with a mean at the higher end of the spectrum when you cut by race but it's quite possible that there are other deficits that cannot easily be highlighted through a metric based comparison alone. It's hard to form a full opinion without the type of information you'd only have access to as a member of the admissions comittee.

chroma 11y ago
Would you defend Harvard if they had a de-facto quota for Jewish applicants? This is a trick question. Harvard (and other Ivy League schools) did discriminate against Jews[1], and their justifications were quite similar to what we're hearing today. These universities switched from grades and test scores to a more "holistic" evaluation, allowing them to surreptitiously limit the number of Jewish students. The game is the same, only the names have changed. Use all the rationalizations and euphemisms you want, but the truth is this: Ivy League schools are rejecting many of their most-qualified applicants solely because of their race[2]. These policies need to end. 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerus_clausus#Numerus_clausus_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerus_clausus#Numerus_clausus... 2. http://www.theamericanconservative.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/asians-large.jpg http://www.theamericanconservative.com/wp-content/uploads/20...
- iaw 11y ago
  I responded to another comment below[1]. I understand that it is easy to view these policies as racism but if you think about the people that spots are being freed for there is a larger net social gain. I knew this would be unpopular when I posted it, and I am personally biased, but I don't think one can make the argument that Asian's lack socioeconomic mobility in the same way as some of the other races. [1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9557216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9557216
yummyfajitas 11y ago
Suppose black students were accepted at far lower rates than their SAT scores suggested they would be. Would you accept the argument that blacks are secretly deficient in some hard to measure way? I'd sure be suspicious of that. In any case, it would be great if Harvard could provide some stats showing exactly how Asians are deficient. Will be interesting.
- iaw 11y ago
  I think if black students would otherwise be over-represented at the school it would make sense. So Asian's are 5% of the US population [1] but make up 20% of the admitted applicants [2]. While African American's, representing 13% of the country [1] and a shameful legacy of mistreatment make up 12% of admitted applicants [2]. The problem is that admissions isn't based solely on your capabilities as a student at the time of application, but also on your potential to grow. Asian's tend to be fairly successful in the US (especially 2nd and 3rd generations) [wish I could find stats for this right now], if you start in a good environment with two intelligent well-meaning parents a 780 in math is impressive, if you're the son of a single mother with a father in jail and 3 younger siblings you share responsibilities for that 520 in math looks spectacular. If I ever see Asian's in this being denied social mobility I'll raise torches and pitchforks, but in this scenario Harvard is a limited resource that provides immense social mobility for students from the lower echelons of society, if admissions were rooted solely in test scores and grades then these students with potential, but not the resources from birth, will be denied a chance to benefit from a prestigious education. [1] http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html [2] https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics edit: I appreciate people's rights to disagree, but I find it frustrating that the preference has been to downvote this rather than engage in meaningful dialogue.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - SamReidHughes 11y ago
    Asians aren't just discriminated against relative to black students, they're also discriminated against relative to white students. Your distractions like "shameful legacy of mistreatment" and "single mother with a father in jail" don't work so well then, do they? > If I ever see Asian's in this being denied social mobility All the ones that would've been admitted if they were white. You just have to treat them as individual sentient people instead of a mass statistic. Edit: For that matter, compare Asians with academically demanding parents and white people and black people with academically demanding parents. Looking at that subset of the population, Asians are discriminated against, keeping the variable you were considering constant. Then consider Asians with single mothers and white people and black people with single mothers. Asians in that strata are discriminated against, too.

by iaw 11y ago

chroma 11y ago

Would you defend Harvard if they had a de-facto quota for Jewish applicants? This is a trick question. Harvard (and other Ivy League schools) did discriminate against Jews[1], and their justifications were quite similar to what we're hearing today. These universities switched from grades and test scores to a more "holistic" evaluation, allowing them to surreptitiously limit the number of Jewish students. The game is the same, only the names have changed. Use all the rationalizations and euphemisms you want, but the truth is this: Ivy League schools are rejecting many of their most-qualified applicants solely because of their race[2]. These policies need to end. 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerus_clausus#Numerus_clausus_in_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerus_clausus#Numerus_clausus... 2. http://www.theamericanconservative.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/asians-large.jpg http://www.theamericanconservative.com/wp-content/uploads/20...

iaw 11y ago
I responded to another comment below[1]. I understand that it is easy to view these policies as racism but if you think about the people that spots are being freed for there is a larger net social gain. I knew this would be unpopular when I posted it, and I am personally biased, but I don't think one can make the argument that Asian's lack socioeconomic mobility in the same way as some of the other races. [1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9557216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9557216

yummyfajitas 11y ago

Suppose black students were accepted at far lower rates than their SAT scores suggested they would be. Would you accept the argument that blacks are secretly deficient in some hard to measure way? I'd sure be suspicious of that. In any case, it would be great if Harvard could provide some stats showing exactly how Asians are deficient. Will be interesting.

iaw 11y ago
I think if black students would otherwise be over-represented at the school it would make sense. So Asian's are 5% of the US population [1] but make up 20% of the admitted applicants [2]. While African American's, representing 13% of the country [1] and a shameful legacy of mistreatment make up 12% of admitted applicants [2]. The problem is that admissions isn't based solely on your capabilities as a student at the time of application, but also on your potential to grow. Asian's tend to be fairly successful in the US (especially 2nd and 3rd generations) [wish I could find stats for this right now], if you start in a good environment with two intelligent well-meaning parents a 780 in math is impressive, if you're the son of a single mother with a father in jail and 3 younger siblings you share responsibilities for that 520 in math looks spectacular. If I ever see Asian's in this being denied social mobility I'll raise torches and pitchforks, but in this scenario Harvard is a limited resource that provides immense social mobility for students from the lower echelons of society, if admissions were rooted solely in test scores and grades then these students with potential, but not the resources from birth, will be denied a chance to benefit from a prestigious education. [1] http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html [2] https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics edit: I appreciate people's rights to disagree, but I find it frustrating that the preference has been to downvote this rather than engage in meaningful dialogue.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- SamReidHughes 11y ago
  Asians aren't just discriminated against relative to black students, they're also discriminated against relative to white students. Your distractions like "shameful legacy of mistreatment" and "single mother with a father in jail" don't work so well then, do they? > If I ever see Asian's in this being denied social mobility All the ones that would've been admitted if they were white. You just have to treat them as individual sentient people instead of a mass statistic. Edit: For that matter, compare Asians with academically demanding parents and white people and black people with academically demanding parents. Looking at that subset of the population, Asians are discriminated against, keeping the variable you were considering constant. Then consider Asians with single mothers and white people and black people with single mothers. Asians in that strata are discriminated against, too.