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I like the personal attack at the end. The figures given by the living wage calculator are assuming a middle class lifestyle which is obviously ignorant when d

I like the personal attack at the end. The figures given by the living wage calculator are assuming a middle class lifestyle which is obviously ignorant when discussing lower class economics. Plugging in my own city of Ann Arbor, Michigan gives wildly inflated figures that fall in line exactly with my claims up above. The rent figure given is for having your own one bedroom apartment with no roommates, the food figure is hilariously overstated ($242/month), transportation assumes a pretty new car or very long commutes ($306/month). These figures simply are not realistic for a lower class individual. I am living a lower class lifestyle right now as I type this. I live in a shared home with 2 other people. I drive an older but reliable car I purchased for $2.2k cash (a luxury expense, I could have kept taking the bus/biking to work). I rarely eat out, and I avoid expensive items at the grocery store barring a few healthy choices like nuts. I split a $45/month 50 mbit internet connection with both my roommates. No cable. $30/month cell phone bill (another luxury). I have health and auto insurance. Overall, I have a pretty comfortable life for less than <$10k/yr. Nothing is stopping genuinely poor people from doing the same except extraordinary misfortunes (birth defects, severe disabilities). There is no moralizing here, just the cold hard numbers and experience from someone actually living this life and interacting daily with others at the bottom of the workforce. EDIT: After seeing your comment above I want to point out that at no point did I assert you could retire by 30 years old on this kind of income. If you're trying to argue that point then it's a strawman. I will also add that if you're still making ~20k/yr all of your life then you've made some financial mistakes in regards to your actual career choices, even janitorial staff end up around 35k/yr after a while.

fweespeech 11y ago
Okay, so your argument is you know better than a professor at MIT who studies this stuff. K. You may want to consider: 1) If I had to rely on a bus/bike for work, I would not have a job. 2) If I did have a reliable cell phone with data capable of providing a wifi hotspot in an emergency, I would not have a job. 3) If I did not have a solid internet connection, I would not have a job. A number of things you claim are luxuries, really are not luxuries if you want to be employed in a number of fields. Even the guy that does the basic helpdesk stuff needs that and he only is paid $30k a year. You also are ignoring one-off costs like repairs and medical costs when you quote these numbers and thump your chest. I have annual medical costs [beyond insurance] of 10% of your claimed spending. For fuck's sake. http://www.nasdaq.com/article/mcdonalds-sample-budget-sheet-is-laughable-but-its-implications-are-not-cm261920 http://www.nasdaq.com/article/mcdonalds-sample-budget-sheet-... http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/07/mcdonalds-cant-figure-out-how-its-workers-survive-on-minimum-wage/277845/ http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/07/mcdonald... > McDonald's Can't Figure Out How Its Workers Survive on Minimum Wage Hell, even the McDonald's Sample Budget everyone calls a joke has over $12,000 in annual expenses. http://livingwage.mit.edu/places/2616103000 http://livingwage.mit.edu/places/2616103000 > The rent figure given is for having your own one bedroom apartment with no roommates > I am living a lower class lifestyle right now as I type this. I live in a shared home with 2 other people. $649 is the housing budget including utilities, cleaning supplies, and all other related expenses not just rent. https://annarbor.craigslist.org/sha/5024320646.html https://annarbor.craigslist.org/sha/5024320646.html - $500 https://annarbor.craigslist.org/hou/5025045124.html https://annarbor.craigslist.org/hou/5025045124.html - $400 https://annarbor.craigslist.org/sha/5024006969.html https://annarbor.craigslist.org/sha/5024006969.html - $400 Yeah, these people are renting one bedrooms. Sure buddy. $400+money for utilities,etc. puts them safely within the $649 budget and they aren't renting one bedroom apartments now are they? I honestly don't even believe you at this point because you are clearly oblivious to the going rental rate in your own f'n city. > EDIT: After seeing your comment above I want to point out that at no point did I assert you could retire by 30 years old on this kind of income. If you're trying to argue that point then it's a strawman. I will also add that if you're still making ~20k/yr all of your life then you've made some financial mistakes in regards to your actual career choices, even janitorial staff end up around 35k/yr after a while. You support the prevailing view of /r/FinancialIndependence and their idols who make claims about retiring in their 30s like that. That isn't a strawman and I quoted an article where they did exactly that. How am I supposed to read your mind and realize the very group you chose to use as a benchmark to discuss: > If you manage not to fall victim to either of those then you can save a substantial portion of your income towards a very early retirement should you choose to do so. Maybe you should be more specific then rather than cry strawman when those FI folks talking about "very early retirement", its retirement in their 30s. Cry strawman if you want but by the standards of the community you were talking about, 30s is what that phrase means and I can point to a ton of posts/blogs in relation to that group of people.
- Omniusaspirer 11y ago
  Ann Arbor is one of the most expensive cities in the entire state of Michigan and is often compared to places like Boulder, Colorado. Most lower class individuals would live somewhat in its periphery, almost certainly not adjacent to the UofM campus or downtown. I personally pay $440/month with utilities included and I've seen many places become available in the 2 years I've been here at similar prices. Like everywhere it takes some patience and planning to get a good deal- this is par for the course for anyone looking to minimize expenses. Poor planning is expensive. If you choose not to believe this that's fine, but I have zero reason to lie. Even paying a bit more on rent a roommate scenario with split utilities is never going to add up to $675 a month if you're at all savvy and modest in the residence you choose. If your job requires a car and phone but doesn't pay an amount that allows you to afford those things then you should get a different job. $40/month will get you unlimited everything phone wise, or if like me you rarely call then you can do T-Mobiles $30 a month 5gb 4g plan w/ 100 calling minutes. I'm in no way trying to thump my chest here, I'm trying to provide a detailed look at this lifestyle within the overall context of FI's ideas regarding saving and well planned finances. I also apologize if I somehow led you to believe I was saying anyone regardless of circumstance and income could retire at 30. I'm genuinely a little puzzled as to why you're going at me so aggressively, would you mind going into your own lifestyle and why you feel I must be lying to you? EDIT: As far as being mad I wasn't more specific, pay some mind to the demographic that visits this site. I would be surprised if even 1 in 10,000 visitors to this site will never in their life have a job paying more than ~20k/yr (assuming they live in the 1st world). My message was obviously directed at this sites prevailing demographic.

fweespeech 11y ago

Okay, so your argument is you know better than a professor at MIT who studies this stuff. K. You may want to consider: 1) If I had to rely on a bus/bike for work, I would not have a job. 2) If I did have a reliable cell phone with data capable of providing a wifi hotspot in an emergency, I would not have a job. 3) If I did not have a solid internet connection, I would not have a job. A number of things you claim are luxuries, really are not luxuries if you want to be employed in a number of fields. Even the guy that does the basic helpdesk stuff needs that and he only is paid $30k a year. You also are ignoring one-off costs like repairs and medical costs when you quote these numbers and thump your chest. I have annual medical costs [beyond insurance] of 10% of your claimed spending. For fuck's sake. http://www.nasdaq.com/article/mcdonalds-sample-budget-sheet-is-laughable-but-its-implications-are-not-cm261920 http://www.nasdaq.com/article/mcdonalds-sample-budget-sheet-... http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/07/mcdonalds-cant-figure-out-how-its-workers-survive-on-minimum-wage/277845/ http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/07/mcdonald... > McDonald's Can't Figure Out How Its Workers Survive on Minimum Wage Hell, even the McDonald's Sample Budget everyone calls a joke has over $12,000 in annual expenses. http://livingwage.mit.edu/places/2616103000 http://livingwage.mit.edu/places/2616103000 > The rent figure given is for having your own one bedroom apartment with no roommates > I am living a lower class lifestyle right now as I type this. I live in a shared home with 2 other people. $649 is the housing budget including utilities, cleaning supplies, and all other related expenses not just rent. https://annarbor.craigslist.org/sha/5024320646.html https://annarbor.craigslist.org/sha/5024320646.html - $500 https://annarbor.craigslist.org/hou/5025045124.html https://annarbor.craigslist.org/hou/5025045124.html - $400 https://annarbor.craigslist.org/sha/5024006969.html https://annarbor.craigslist.org/sha/5024006969.html - $400 Yeah, these people are renting one bedrooms. Sure buddy. $400+money for utilities,etc. puts them safely within the $649 budget and they aren't renting one bedroom apartments now are they? I honestly don't even believe you at this point because you are clearly oblivious to the going rental rate in your own f'n city. > EDIT: After seeing your comment above I want to point out that at no point did I assert you could retire by 30 years old on this kind of income. If you're trying to argue that point then it's a strawman. I will also add that if you're still making ~20k/yr all of your life then you've made some financial mistakes in regards to your actual career choices, even janitorial staff end up around 35k/yr after a while. You support the prevailing view of /r/FinancialIndependence and their idols who make claims about retiring in their 30s like that. That isn't a strawman and I quoted an article where they did exactly that. How am I supposed to read your mind and realize the very group you chose to use as a benchmark to discuss: > If you manage not to fall victim to either of those then you can save a substantial portion of your income towards a very early retirement should you choose to do so. Maybe you should be more specific then rather than cry strawman when those FI folks talking about "very early retirement", its retirement in their 30s. Cry strawman if you want but by the standards of the community you were talking about, 30s is what that phrase means and I can point to a ton of posts/blogs in relation to that group of people.

Omniusaspirer 11y ago
Ann Arbor is one of the most expensive cities in the entire state of Michigan and is often compared to places like Boulder, Colorado. Most lower class individuals would live somewhat in its periphery, almost certainly not adjacent to the UofM campus or downtown. I personally pay $440/month with utilities included and I've seen many places become available in the 2 years I've been here at similar prices. Like everywhere it takes some patience and planning to get a good deal- this is par for the course for anyone looking to minimize expenses. Poor planning is expensive. If you choose not to believe this that's fine, but I have zero reason to lie. Even paying a bit more on rent a roommate scenario with split utilities is never going to add up to $675 a month if you're at all savvy and modest in the residence you choose. If your job requires a car and phone but doesn't pay an amount that allows you to afford those things then you should get a different job. $40/month will get you unlimited everything phone wise, or if like me you rarely call then you can do T-Mobiles $30 a month 5gb 4g plan w/ 100 calling minutes. I'm in no way trying to thump my chest here, I'm trying to provide a detailed look at this lifestyle within the overall context of FI's ideas regarding saving and well planned finances. I also apologize if I somehow led you to believe I was saying anyone regardless of circumstance and income could retire at 30. I'm genuinely a little puzzled as to why you're going at me so aggressively, would you mind going into your own lifestyle and why you feel I must be lying to you? EDIT: As far as being mad I wasn't more specific, pay some mind to the demographic that visits this site. I would be surprised if even 1 in 10,000 visitors to this site will never in their life have a job paying more than ~20k/yr (assuming they live in the 1st world). My message was obviously directed at this sites prevailing demographic.