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I wish JavaScript "committed a teenager suicide" and we finally got a more sane language for the web. It's startling how much energy is spent to work around its

by bitL 12y ago

I wish JavaScript "committed a teenager suicide" and we finally got a more sane language for the web. It's startling how much energy is spent to work around its bad design every day and it's not getting any better, people are just getting used to it (which is akin to voluntarily agree with having most of one's brain blown off). Even seeing Brendan showing off that he hacked the language in 10 days makes me sick to the stomach...

aikah 12y ago
> I wish JavaScript "committed a teenager suicide" and we finally got a more sane language for the web. While javascript has obvious flaws, nobody would ever agree on what a sane language would be. I would also say that, personally, I think that how the DOM is implemented is itself the biggest pain point of web development, not really javascript.
- vezzy-fnord 12y ago
  Lua is a sane ECMAScript in many ways.
  - robocat 12y ago
    Except that Lua and the Lua libraries are not strictly defined. Lua would be a fine choice if we were all to use for example only Microsoft Lua ;-) Seriously, there have been a large number of compatible ECMAScript implementations, which still astounds me because that is no easy feat.
- gravity13 12y ago
  Why DOM? It seems pretty simple to me, a simple standardized tree of nodes representing content. My biggest gripe would actually be CSS. I mean, wtf.
macspoofing 12y ago
>I wish JavaScript "committed a teenager suicide" and we finally got a more sane language for the web You got it. ES6, ES7 are making JS look better and better.
- yxhuvud 12y ago
  That is not a suicide though, but rather the process of growing up.
swang 12y ago
> I wish JavaScript "committed a teenager suicide" Uhhh what? This is a pretty weird thing to say, also kinda messed up to reference something as a "teenage suicide"
hinkley 12y ago
I struggle with a couple different tools that were developed in weeks or a couple months or on a plane ride. Every time these guys brag about how quickly they put together the first version I just want to say to them, "yeah, we can all tell. And every day we suffer for it."
- to3m 12y ago
  Yes. There's just no substitute for time. It's impressive to see something put together quickly, but the result is inevitably lacking in some (or more) ways. In this talk, I couldn't decide whether his saying JS was written in ten days was a rueful admission that it's only natural for it to be a huge pile of shit, or some self-aggrandizement based on how quickly he managed to write it. I always found JS rather tasteless, so, naturally predisposed to think somewhat uncharitably of its author, I'm going to assume it's self-aggrandizement. This might be a bit rude of me, but if it's OK to rush out JS then slowly make it ever so slightly better over the next 20 years, then I think it's OK for me to form my opinions in the same manner ;)
  - BrendanEich 12y ago
    Hume's Guillotine slices again! Please think through this keynote at a conference. I was asked to talk about the early days of JS. Why do you suppose that I am aggrandizing by describing "is" (or "was") as if "ought" can be derived in a moral sense? JS happened, I made it in ten days because it wouldn't have happened otherwise. Had I thought it through, I might have insisted on more time -- but then: VBScript. We don't get to call these shots. Taste and morality have little to do with their hitting targets (whether the ones we aimed at, or others). All the good stuff in JS came from giants on whose shoulders or heads I stood. I'm not a nihilist or materialist, but I have to laugh after 20 years. JS was not planned out this far in advance! Anyhoo, my sense of self does not depend on ten days in May 1995. My work on the Web, not just JS but especially on Mozilla, Firefox, and HTML5, doesn't need aggrandizement. My best work has yet to be seen. I'm not doing these talks to boast. Peace.
    - tomtom2 12y ago
pjmlp 12y ago
I share a similar wish in regard to systems programming.
gohrt 12y ago
This post, like JavaScript, is an utterly horrible way to express an idea.
- TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
  Quite offensive and hurtful, too. "teenager suicide"?!
- bitL 12y ago
  At least we agree on the main point. And I obviously referred to JS just passing its teenage years, which I would prefer it didn't manage to. I am one of those crazies that are implementing a desktop-like functionality app for creatives in a browser, created a car racing game in pure JS without a single 3rd party library, did computer vision in a browser via webcam etc. and every time I have to use JS/DOM/CSS it just makes me feel I need to go to Queenstown and jump off the Kawarau bridge... Not to mention that as a Mozilla fanboy I even use bleeding edge Firefox OS on my primary business phone.

by bitL 12y ago

aikah 12y ago

> I wish JavaScript "committed a teenager suicide" and we finally got a more sane language for the web. While javascript has obvious flaws, nobody would ever agree on what a sane language would be. I would also say that, personally, I think that how the DOM is implemented is itself the biggest pain point of web development, not really javascript.

vezzy-fnord 12y ago
Lua is a sane ECMAScript in many ways.
- robocat 12y ago
  Except that Lua and the Lua libraries are not strictly defined. Lua would be a fine choice if we were all to use for example only Microsoft Lua ;-) Seriously, there have been a large number of compatible ECMAScript implementations, which still astounds me because that is no easy feat.
gravity13 12y ago
Why DOM? It seems pretty simple to me, a simple standardized tree of nodes representing content. My biggest gripe would actually be CSS. I mean, wtf.

macspoofing 12y ago

>I wish JavaScript "committed a teenager suicide" and we finally got a more sane language for the web You got it. ES6, ES7 are making JS look better and better.

yxhuvud 12y ago
That is not a suicide though, but rather the process of growing up.

swang 12y ago

> I wish JavaScript "committed a teenager suicide" Uhhh what? This is a pretty weird thing to say, also kinda messed up to reference something as a "teenage suicide"

hinkley 12y ago

I struggle with a couple different tools that were developed in weeks or a couple months or on a plane ride. Every time these guys brag about how quickly they put together the first version I just want to say to them, "yeah, we can all tell. And every day we suffer for it."

to3m 12y ago
Yes. There's just no substitute for time. It's impressive to see something put together quickly, but the result is inevitably lacking in some (or more) ways. In this talk, I couldn't decide whether his saying JS was written in ten days was a rueful admission that it's only natural for it to be a huge pile of shit, or some self-aggrandizement based on how quickly he managed to write it. I always found JS rather tasteless, so, naturally predisposed to think somewhat uncharitably of its author, I'm going to assume it's self-aggrandizement. This might be a bit rude of me, but if it's OK to rush out JS then slowly make it ever so slightly better over the next 20 years, then I think it's OK for me to form my opinions in the same manner ;)
- BrendanEich 12y ago
  Hume's Guillotine slices again! Please think through this keynote at a conference. I was asked to talk about the early days of JS. Why do you suppose that I am aggrandizing by describing "is" (or "was") as if "ought" can be derived in a moral sense? JS happened, I made it in ten days because it wouldn't have happened otherwise. Had I thought it through, I might have insisted on more time -- but then: VBScript. We don't get to call these shots. Taste and morality have little to do with their hitting targets (whether the ones we aimed at, or others). All the good stuff in JS came from giants on whose shoulders or heads I stood. I'm not a nihilist or materialist, but I have to laugh after 20 years. JS was not planned out this far in advance! Anyhoo, my sense of self does not depend on ten days in May 1995. My work on the Web, not just JS but especially on Mozilla, Firefox, and HTML5, doesn't need aggrandizement. My best work has yet to be seen. I'm not doing these talks to boast. Peace.
  - tomtom2 12y ago

pjmlp 12y ago

I share a similar wish in regard to systems programming.

gohrt 12y ago

This post, like JavaScript, is an utterly horrible way to express an idea.

TazeTSchnitzel 12y ago
Quite offensive and hurtful, too. "teenager suicide"?!
bitL 12y ago
At least we agree on the main point. And I obviously referred to JS just passing its teenage years, which I would prefer it didn't manage to. I am one of those crazies that are implementing a desktop-like functionality app for creatives in a browser, created a car racing game in pure JS without a single 3rd party library, did computer vision in a browser via webcam etc. and every time I have to use JS/DOM/CSS it just makes me feel I need to go to Queenstown and jump off the Kawarau bridge... Not to mention that as a Mozilla fanboy I even use bleeding edge Firefox OS on my primary business phone.