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I greatly dislike the NSA and think they should be dismantled. So let me take a moment to think outside of that box... Page 9 of that report essentially says '

I greatly dislike the NSA and think they should be dismantled. So let me take a moment to think outside of that box... Page 9 of that report essentially says 'we read all your social media, browsing, and email'. I've always been ok with corporations doing this because they'll never kick down my door in the middle of then night, unlike governments. But the NSA isn't kicking down doors either (not that I've heard of). Even their most famous malware (Stuxnet and Flame) were carefully designed only to screw over certain people. Sure, they're grey-hats; testing systems and not reporting bugs. But they're not yet black hats. They haven't been caught yet fucking over innocent people (I think we can agree the Iranian nuclear program doesn't qualify as innocent people, though again an act of war against it isn't exactly white-hat activity). Maybe they're not guilty until they commit a more egregious crime? Probably not. Probably they're still a negative influence in the world. But it's interesting to consider other perspectives.

maresca 11y ago
You don't know what you don't know.
ProAm 11y ago
> But the NSA isn't kicking down doors either They have other people kick the doors in for them. [1] Parallel construction is how it gets done in the real world. [1] https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140203/11143926078/parallel-construction-revealed-how-dea-is-trained-to-launder-classified-surveillance-info.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140203/11143926078/paral...
imglorp 11y ago
> they'll never kick down my door Maybe not, however they cooperate with those who do kick down doors. Eg: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/05/the-nsa-is-giving-your-phone-records-to-the-dea-and-the-dea-is-covering-it-up http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/05...
higherpurpose 11y ago
> They haven't been caught yet fucking over innocent people Yes, they have been: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/24/loveint-when-nsa-officers-use-their-spying-power-on-love-interests/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/24... I also think you're incredibly naive. I don't understand how people can give such a massive organization funded by tens of billions of dollars a year, that doesn't even let Congressmen properly audit it, the benefit of the doubt. Even Feinstein said she doesn't know about all of of NSA's programs. Why would you assume then that they are trust-worthy? Just because we haven't found out about some super-secret stuff that they wouldn't allow you to see anyway "because national security"? You know what they say - trust, but verify. Except the NSA doesn't let you verify. If the NSA ever does anything against you, you're never going to know about it. They can spy on all of your communications and online activities (which can include e-commerce and other stuff), and then set the IRS on you. You'll just think the IRS caught you, not the NSA. What about running Congress or presidential candidates? They can spy on all of their activities from 10-20 years ago until now, then send an "anonymous tip" along with all the data to a newspaper to destroy that politician's chance of winning. That politician may have wanted to rein in on NSA's powers or simply do anything those who really run the NSA wouldn't have liked. Again, you're never going to know it was NSA behind something like that. Those are just example of what they can do with their extreme, unaccountable, overboard and secretive spying powers.
aw3c2 11y ago
It really does not matter. In a free democracy there should be no surveillance of innocents. The sole feeling of being watched alone changes people (someone help me with the citation here).
- 0xdeadbeefbabe 11y ago
  Panopticon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon There is also something named after Caesar where if you treat people like criminals they will become criminals (someone help me with the citation here).
  - morganvachon 11y ago
    I'm not sure if this is the citation you wanted, but it does deal with the issue in the context of public schools: http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2013/07/19/if-criminals-is-what-you-want-criminals-is-what-youll-get http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2013/07/19/if-criminals-i...
- antoko 11y ago
  Hawthorne effect? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect
- squidbidness 11y ago
  > In a free democracy there should be no surveillance of innocents I agree with the sentiment, although I might rephrase it as "There should be no surveillance without a warrant," since in some cases you can't know who is innocent or not without doing surveillance. A warrant is a good implementation of due process for people you want to investigate, but who are still (in theory) presumed innocent.
mindslight 11y ago
> They haven't been caught yet fucking over innocent people Imagine you find out your roommate is running tcpdump -w log.pcap on the router. He hasn't been reading your conversations or anything though, yet. Would you consider this behavior acceptable? That being said, I don't think NSA is going anywhere until USG falls apart, and even then it'll continue operating independently. Nor are they the only group doing such things. Fixing the glaring security bugs of IP and HTTPS is the only way forward.
underbluewaters 11y ago
The national security establishment routinely interferes with our democratic process to the benefit of corporations and powerful institutions. The latest news this week was how the FBI infiltrated the peaceful Keystone Pipeline protest movement. They provided intelligence to TransCanada about protestors and engaged in intimidation. Different agency, but they share a lot of info (parallel construction, etc) and their mission statements now overlap to a large degree. I can't even imagine the thought process of someone who thinks it's okay to participate in these sorts of operations. I shudder at the thought of what else a person like that might be able to justify doing that hasn't been revealed. Imagine if the government had these sorts of powers in the mid twentieth century. The FBI attempted to stop the civil rights movement. In the 21st century they would have succeeded.
nileshtrivedi 11y ago
> They haven't been caught yet Because the NSL orders are kept secret. If you're going to take an evidence-oriented approach, they shouldn't have the ability to censor speech - because that is how the evidence will be discovered.
mindcrash 11y ago
> I've always been ok with corporations doing this because they'll never kick down my door in the middle of then night, You might start to think otherwise when corporations either when requested (forcefully) or voluntarily will hand over your data to the government, whom then might kick down your door in the middle of the night when you say or do something they don't like. Oh by the way, this is already happening.

maresca 11y ago

You don't know what you don't know.

ProAm 11y ago

> But the NSA isn't kicking down doors either They have other people kick the doors in for them. [1] Parallel construction is how it gets done in the real world. [1] https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140203/11143926078/parallel-construction-revealed-how-dea-is-trained-to-launder-classified-surveillance-info.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140203/11143926078/paral...

imglorp 11y ago

> they'll never kick down my door Maybe not, however they cooperate with those who do kick down doors. Eg: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/05/the-nsa-is-giving-your-phone-records-to-the-dea-and-the-dea-is-covering-it-up http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/05...

higherpurpose 11y ago

> They haven't been caught yet fucking over innocent people Yes, they have been: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/24/loveint-when-nsa-officers-use-their-spying-power-on-love-interests/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/24... I also think you're incredibly naive. I don't understand how people can give such a massive organization funded by tens of billions of dollars a year, that doesn't even let Congressmen properly audit it, the benefit of the doubt. Even Feinstein said she doesn't know about all of of NSA's programs. Why would you assume then that they are trust-worthy? Just because we haven't found out about some super-secret stuff that they wouldn't allow you to see anyway "because national security"? You know what they say - trust, but verify. Except the NSA doesn't let you verify. If the NSA ever does anything against you, you're never going to know about it. They can spy on all of your communications and online activities (which can include e-commerce and other stuff), and then set the IRS on you. You'll just think the IRS caught you, not the NSA. What about running Congress or presidential candidates? They can spy on all of their activities from 10-20 years ago until now, then send an "anonymous tip" along with all the data to a newspaper to destroy that politician's chance of winning. That politician may have wanted to rein in on NSA's powers or simply do anything those who really run the NSA wouldn't have liked. Again, you're never going to know it was NSA behind something like that. Those are just example of what they can do with their extreme, unaccountable, overboard and secretive spying powers.

aw3c2 11y ago

It really does not matter. In a free democracy there should be no surveillance of innocents. The sole feeling of being watched alone changes people (someone help me with the citation here).

0xdeadbeefbabe 11y ago
Panopticon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon There is also something named after Caesar where if you treat people like criminals they will become criminals (someone help me with the citation here).
- morganvachon 11y ago
  I'm not sure if this is the citation you wanted, but it does deal with the issue in the context of public schools: http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2013/07/19/if-criminals-is-what-you-want-criminals-is-what-youll-get http://ordinary-gentlemen.com/blog/2013/07/19/if-criminals-i...
antoko 11y ago
Hawthorne effect? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect
squidbidness 11y ago
> In a free democracy there should be no surveillance of innocents I agree with the sentiment, although I might rephrase it as "There should be no surveillance without a warrant," since in some cases you can't know who is innocent or not without doing surveillance. A warrant is a good implementation of due process for people you want to investigate, but who are still (in theory) presumed innocent.

mindslight 11y ago

> They haven't been caught yet fucking over innocent people Imagine you find out your roommate is running tcpdump -w log.pcap on the router. He hasn't been reading your conversations or anything though, yet. Would you consider this behavior acceptable? That being said, I don't think NSA is going anywhere until USG falls apart, and even then it'll continue operating independently. Nor are they the only group doing such things. Fixing the glaring security bugs of IP and HTTPS is the only way forward.

underbluewaters 11y ago

The national security establishment routinely interferes with our democratic process to the benefit of corporations and powerful institutions. The latest news this week was how the FBI infiltrated the peaceful Keystone Pipeline protest movement. They provided intelligence to TransCanada about protestors and engaged in intimidation. Different agency, but they share a lot of info (parallel construction, etc) and their mission statements now overlap to a large degree. I can't even imagine the thought process of someone who thinks it's okay to participate in these sorts of operations. I shudder at the thought of what else a person like that might be able to justify doing that hasn't been revealed. Imagine if the government had these sorts of powers in the mid twentieth century. The FBI attempted to stop the civil rights movement. In the 21st century they would have succeeded.

nileshtrivedi 11y ago

> They haven't been caught yet Because the NSL orders are kept secret. If you're going to take an evidence-oriented approach, they shouldn't have the ability to censor speech - because that is how the evidence will be discovered.

mindcrash 11y ago

> I've always been ok with corporations doing this because they'll never kick down my door in the middle of then night, You might start to think otherwise when corporations either when requested (forcefully) or voluntarily will hand over your data to the government, whom then might kick down your door in the middle of the night when you say or do something they don't like. Oh by the way, this is already happening.