6 ms·

A Sharp Spike in Honeybee Deaths Deepens a Worrisome Trend

48 points by mtuncer 11y ago

late2part 11y ago
Although the article suggests there's no fear for extinction, the continual concerns worry me: Professor Einstein, the learned scientist, once calculated that if all bees disappeared off the earth, four years later all humans would also have disappeared. Abeilles et fleurs, June, 1965.
- rgbrenner 11y ago
  Is that actually true though? Here's a list of crops pollinated by bees: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_crop_plants_pollinated_by_bees http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_crop_plants_pollinated_... I don't see wheat, corn, or rice on there. Here's a list of crops that don't need pollination: http://www.hortmag.com/plants/fruits-veggies/vegetable-crops-that-do-not-need-pollinators http://www.hortmag.com/plants/fruits-veggies/vegetable-crops... What veggies do not need pollinators to produce:  • All leafy greens • Brassicas: broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage and kohlrabi • Below ground root veggies and tubers such as carrots, parsnips, salsify, potatoes, sweet potatoes, horseradish • Ground level root veggies such as beets, turnips, rutabagas • Most legumes including peas and beans • Corn—like other wind pollinated veggies • Herbs, like the lemon balm pictured • Celery • Onions and leeks That's a pretty good list of foods for humans to survive on.
  - late2part 11y ago
    I certainly don't know. Even if we could survive on just those foods, I'd prefer life with more :-) I suspect that if we looked at arable land and calories per year by different crops, we'd find that your list can't support the dietary requirements for the 7B people. But, I don't know that, I'm just speculating.
    - rgbrenner 11y ago
      The largest crops in the world are wheat, corn, and rice. None of which depend on bees. This article is interesting: http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/OnEinsteinBeesandSurvivaloftheHumanRaceHoneyBeeProgramCAESEntomologyUGA.html http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/OnEinsteinBeesandSurvivaloftheHu... A recent analysis[ii] of yearly crop data maintained by the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) from 1961 to 2006 reached some divergent conclusions and shed light on the interacting complexity of the question “How important is animal-vectored pollination?” The authors of the FAO analysis concluded that the proportion of global food production attributable to animal pollination ranges from 5% in industrialized nations to 8% in the developing world. So I think we're going to be fine. Also, it says there's no evidence Einstein actually said the quote.
    - thaumasiotes 11y ago
      > I suspect that if we looked at arable land and calories per year by different crops, we'd find that your list can't support the dietary requirements for the 7B people. If it doesn't impact grasses or beans, it can't impact the world's dietary requirements either. Everything else is a garnish compared to those.
  - maxerickson 11y ago
    There are regions in China that hand pollinate fruit orchards: http://www.wired.com/2014/05/will-we-still-have-fruit-if-bees-die-off/ http://www.wired.com/2014/05/will-we-still-have-fruit-if-bee... The article discusses a series of unfortunate choices that led to the situation, but it is apparently economically viable even in competition with bees.
    - thaumasiotes 11y ago
      The price of manual labor in China is almost nothing. We could replicate that outside of China... but it would mean crushing poverty everywhere. We don't want hand pollination to be economically viable in comparison to bees, and it's only that way in China because of a historical fluke.
      - maxerickson 11y ago
        My point was not that it would be a positive development to have widespread human pollination, it was that even given a worst case scenario, commercial fruits would likely continue to exist (they would likely be more expensive). I'm also not sure that the economics are as bad as you assume. Imagine a worker that pollinates 100 flowers an hour, for $30, with half of the flowers setting fruit. That adds a substantial $0.60 to an apple, roughly doubling the price of a bag, but it isn't crushing poverty for the worker (and I guess they would pollinate faster than that).
  - 2muchcoffeeman 11y ago
    Some of those plants self pollinate like chillis and tomatoes. But I am just a city gardener so I don't know if this is a viable method for mass production.
  - ChuckMcM 11y ago
    No it isn't true, because there a number of pollinator species and a lack of honeybees opens that niche up a bit wider. It would however affect cost effective farming as honeybees are both pollinators and quite portable/controllable. Sort of easy to use pollinating robots.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    Honeybees are of course also not the only insect pollinators.
- jerhinesmith 11y ago
  While I'm not disagreeing with the intentions of the quote, it's worth pointing out that there's no actual evidence that Einstein ever said that: http://www.snopes.com/quotes/einstein/bees.asp http://www.snopes.com/quotes/einstein/bees.asp
- thaumasiotes 11y ago
  The continual concerns worry me too. You can't have a crisis that lasts 20 years. The message they're sending here is "we like talking about bees".
joeyspn 11y ago
> The European Commission has banned the use of three variants of the pesticide on flowering plants, citing risks to bees, and questioned whether they should be used at all. There you have it...
- cyphunk 11y ago
  As a side note regulation in agriculture is one area in particular that concerns europeans over the possible TTIP trade agreement. The EU and US have fundamentally different approaches to such regulation with the EU siding on more regulation when there is a potential risk and the US waiting for a clear block of evidence before introducing regulation.
godgod 11y ago
See Monsanto Roundup. The bees are dying because of the poison in our food supply.
mudil 11y ago
I am a beekeeper. So, I care about bees. So before people start to throw that idea that we are all going to die from lack of pollinators, let's look at the facts. Here's a good start: "What decline? The number of honeybee hives in the world is at a record high. The number in Europe is higher than it was in the early 1990s when neonics were introduced. Hive mortality in Britain was unusually low in the year before the neonic ban. It’s a myth that honeybees are in dire straits." (Ref: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/article4227789.ece http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/article4227789.ece, full article here: http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/bees-and-pesticides.aspx http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/bees-and-pesticides.asp...) I am not saying we don't have problems. Varroa mites is a serious problem (originally from Russia, where the spread of mites was controlled by long winter/cold temps, it is now a world wide problem). We have other infections, we have CCD, etc. But all in all, bees are just doing fine. Except that they are being trucked all over the country to pollinate almonds, apples, etc etc. Consider this. If bees were dying in such record numbers, wouldn't you see significant rise in honey prices?
- HillRat 11y ago
  Actually, honey prices have doubled since 2006 (http://www.honey.com/honey-industry/honey-industry-statistics/unit-honey-prices-by-month-wholesale http://www.honey.com/honey-industry/honey-industry-statistic...). That doesn't invalidate your other points, but there's definitely a sustained, long-term rise in prices, though the exact driver is not necessarily CCD.
  - click170 11y ago
    Which makes me wonder if honey producers are taking advantage of the scare to raise prices or if supply has in fact shrunk enough to raise the price.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    Perhaps the better thing to look at is the cost of pollination services, or of honey bee queens. It's pretty easy to find pollination prices online.
- 11y ago
deepnet 11y ago
Have you guys not banned Neonicotinoides yet ? Since the UK ban my anecdotal evidence is loads more types of bumble bees in my garden. And I have not seen any 'confused' dying bees at all which was a regular sight before the ban. I would have thought the publication of the Nature paper that Bees seek out fresh Neonicotinoid sprayings to get the maximum dose as they are totally hooked on nicotine and so getting way above the dose the previous models suggested would have sealed their fate in the US - but I guess not. Are there any surveys which suggest numbers of bees and wild bees have improved in Europe since the ban ? Interesting that the scientific concern over Neonicotinoides is given considerably less space than the industry 'facts'. As there was a industry spokesperson AMAing on reddit about how pesticides were not so bad for bees and this making the frontpage on HN - I expect some well funded publicity machine is getting oiled up. Is there some critical vote coming up or something ?
- im3w1l 11y ago
  Just thinking aloud here, but if bees get addicted to the pesticide, maybe we could mix something into it that Bee's don't like, to cancel it out.
- cjensen 11y ago
  You came close to the truth when you said "Are there any surveys which suggest numbers of bees and wild bees have improved in Europe since the ban?" The European Ban is a gigantic experiment. Either it will clearly demonstrate that Neonicotinoides are a problem, or that they are a scapegoat. The Europeans have a history of banning things without scientific evidence like BGH and GMO. In this case it's a useful trait since their ban will provide definitive answers.
  - jcbrand 11y ago
    Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. With something like GMO, it might take decades for the harmful effects to become clear. Just like it took decades before people became aware of the carcinogenic effect of cigarette smoking.
brohoolio 11y ago
I was talking with folks at my work who raise bees and they pulled out a list of the stuff you could buy at Lowes or Home Depot with neonics and I was surprised how many brands and various types have them. People just don't realize how wide spread the stuff is.
tptacek 11y ago
Fun fact: wild honeybees in the US have been virtually extinct for a long time; they were mostly wiped out by the Varroa mite starting in (IIRC) the late '80s. If you see an actual honeybee outside near your home, the odds are apparently overwhelming that the bee is owned by someone.
- anigbrowl 11y ago
  Someone owes me big time for all that pollen, then.
bsder 11y ago
The real problem is that the agribusinesses (please don't refer to them as farmers) are unwilling to make the changes to not require honeybees. If they let about 10% of their acreage go wild, native bees come in and can take over most of the load. However, that's more expensive, right now, than continuing to use honeybees. Until using honeybees gets expensive, agribusiness will not change.

48 points by mtuncer 11y ago

Although the article suggests there's no fear for extinction, the continual concerns worry me: Professor Einstein, the learned scientist, once calculated that if all bees disappeared off the earth, four years later all humans would also have disappeared. Abeilles et fleurs, June, 1965.

rgbrenner 11y ago
Is that actually true though? Here's a list of crops pollinated by bees: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_crop_plants_pollinated_by_bees http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_crop_plants_pollinated_... I don't see wheat, corn, or rice on there. Here's a list of crops that don't need pollination: http://www.hortmag.com/plants/fruits-veggies/vegetable-crops-that-do-not-need-pollinators http://www.hortmag.com/plants/fruits-veggies/vegetable-crops... What veggies do not need pollinators to produce:  • All leafy greens • Brassicas: broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage and kohlrabi • Below ground root veggies and tubers such as carrots, parsnips, salsify, potatoes, sweet potatoes, horseradish • Ground level root veggies such as beets, turnips, rutabagas • Most legumes including peas and beans • Corn—like other wind pollinated veggies • Herbs, like the lemon balm pictured • Celery • Onions and leeks That's a pretty good list of foods for humans to survive on.
- late2part 11y ago
  I certainly don't know. Even if we could survive on just those foods, I'd prefer life with more :-) I suspect that if we looked at arable land and calories per year by different crops, we'd find that your list can't support the dietary requirements for the 7B people. But, I don't know that, I'm just speculating.
  - rgbrenner 11y ago
    The largest crops in the world are wheat, corn, and rice. None of which depend on bees. This article is interesting: http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/OnEinsteinBeesandSurvivaloftheHumanRaceHoneyBeeProgramCAESEntomologyUGA.html http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/OnEinsteinBeesandSurvivaloftheHu... A recent analysis[ii] of yearly crop data maintained by the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) from 1961 to 2006 reached some divergent conclusions and shed light on the interacting complexity of the question “How important is animal-vectored pollination?” The authors of the FAO analysis concluded that the proportion of global food production attributable to animal pollination ranges from 5% in industrialized nations to 8% in the developing world. So I think we're going to be fine. Also, it says there's no evidence Einstein actually said the quote.
  - thaumasiotes 11y ago
    > I suspect that if we looked at arable land and calories per year by different crops, we'd find that your list can't support the dietary requirements for the 7B people. If it doesn't impact grasses or beans, it can't impact the world's dietary requirements either. Everything else is a garnish compared to those.
- maxerickson 11y ago
  There are regions in China that hand pollinate fruit orchards: http://www.wired.com/2014/05/will-we-still-have-fruit-if-bees-die-off/ http://www.wired.com/2014/05/will-we-still-have-fruit-if-bee... The article discusses a series of unfortunate choices that led to the situation, but it is apparently economically viable even in competition with bees.
  - thaumasiotes 11y ago
    The price of manual labor in China is almost nothing. We could replicate that outside of China... but it would mean crushing poverty everywhere. We don't want hand pollination to be economically viable in comparison to bees, and it's only that way in China because of a historical fluke.
    - maxerickson 11y ago
      My point was not that it would be a positive development to have widespread human pollination, it was that even given a worst case scenario, commercial fruits would likely continue to exist (they would likely be more expensive). I'm also not sure that the economics are as bad as you assume. Imagine a worker that pollinates 100 flowers an hour, for $30, with half of the flowers setting fruit. That adds a substantial $0.60 to an apple, roughly doubling the price of a bag, but it isn't crushing poverty for the worker (and I guess they would pollinate faster than that).
- 2muchcoffeeman 11y ago
  Some of those plants self pollinate like chillis and tomatoes. But I am just a city gardener so I don't know if this is a viable method for mass production.
- ChuckMcM 11y ago
  No it isn't true, because there a number of pollinator species and a lack of honeybees opens that niche up a bit wider. It would however affect cost effective farming as honeybees are both pollinators and quite portable/controllable. Sort of easy to use pollinating robots.
- tptacek 11y ago
  Honeybees are of course also not the only insect pollinators.
jerhinesmith 11y ago
While I'm not disagreeing with the intentions of the quote, it's worth pointing out that there's no actual evidence that Einstein ever said that: http://www.snopes.com/quotes/einstein/bees.asp http://www.snopes.com/quotes/einstein/bees.asp
thaumasiotes 11y ago
The continual concerns worry me too. You can't have a crisis that lasts 20 years. The message they're sending here is "we like talking about bees".

joeyspn 11y ago

> The European Commission has banned the use of three variants of the pesticide on flowering plants, citing risks to bees, and questioned whether they should be used at all. There you have it...

cyphunk 11y ago
As a side note regulation in agriculture is one area in particular that concerns europeans over the possible TTIP trade agreement. The EU and US have fundamentally different approaches to such regulation with the EU siding on more regulation when there is a potential risk and the US waiting for a clear block of evidence before introducing regulation.

godgod 11y ago

See Monsanto Roundup. The bees are dying because of the poison in our food supply.

mudil 11y ago

I am a beekeeper. So, I care about bees. So before people start to throw that idea that we are all going to die from lack of pollinators, let's look at the facts. Here's a good start: "What decline? The number of honeybee hives in the world is at a record high. The number in Europe is higher than it was in the early 1990s when neonics were introduced. Hive mortality in Britain was unusually low in the year before the neonic ban. It’s a myth that honeybees are in dire straits." (Ref: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/article4227789.ece http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/article4227789.ece, full article here: http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/bees-and-pesticides.aspx http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/bees-and-pesticides.asp...) I am not saying we don't have problems. Varroa mites is a serious problem (originally from Russia, where the spread of mites was controlled by long winter/cold temps, it is now a world wide problem). We have other infections, we have CCD, etc. But all in all, bees are just doing fine. Except that they are being trucked all over the country to pollinate almonds, apples, etc etc. Consider this. If bees were dying in such record numbers, wouldn't you see significant rise in honey prices?

HillRat 11y ago
Actually, honey prices have doubled since 2006 (http://www.honey.com/honey-industry/honey-industry-statistics/unit-honey-prices-by-month-wholesale http://www.honey.com/honey-industry/honey-industry-statistic...). That doesn't invalidate your other points, but there's definitely a sustained, long-term rise in prices, though the exact driver is not necessarily CCD.
- click170 11y ago
  Which makes me wonder if honey producers are taking advantage of the scare to raise prices or if supply has in fact shrunk enough to raise the price.
- tptacek 11y ago
  Perhaps the better thing to look at is the cost of pollination services, or of honey bee queens. It's pretty easy to find pollination prices online.
11y ago

deepnet 11y ago

Have you guys not banned Neonicotinoides yet ? Since the UK ban my anecdotal evidence is loads more types of bumble bees in my garden. And I have not seen any 'confused' dying bees at all which was a regular sight before the ban. I would have thought the publication of the Nature paper that Bees seek out fresh Neonicotinoid sprayings to get the maximum dose as they are totally hooked on nicotine and so getting way above the dose the previous models suggested would have sealed their fate in the US - but I guess not. Are there any surveys which suggest numbers of bees and wild bees have improved in Europe since the ban ? Interesting that the scientific concern over Neonicotinoides is given considerably less space than the industry 'facts'. As there was a industry spokesperson AMAing on reddit about how pesticides were not so bad for bees and this making the frontpage on HN - I expect some well funded publicity machine is getting oiled up. Is there some critical vote coming up or something ?

im3w1l 11y ago
Just thinking aloud here, but if bees get addicted to the pesticide, maybe we could mix something into it that Bee's don't like, to cancel it out.
cjensen 11y ago
You came close to the truth when you said "Are there any surveys which suggest numbers of bees and wild bees have improved in Europe since the ban?" The European Ban is a gigantic experiment. Either it will clearly demonstrate that Neonicotinoides are a problem, or that they are a scapegoat. The Europeans have a history of banning things without scientific evidence like BGH and GMO. In this case it's a useful trait since their ban will provide definitive answers.
- jcbrand 11y ago
  Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. With something like GMO, it might take decades for the harmful effects to become clear. Just like it took decades before people became aware of the carcinogenic effect of cigarette smoking.

brohoolio 11y ago

I was talking with folks at my work who raise bees and they pulled out a list of the stuff you could buy at Lowes or Home Depot with neonics and I was surprised how many brands and various types have them. People just don't realize how wide spread the stuff is.

tptacek 11y ago

Fun fact: wild honeybees in the US have been virtually extinct for a long time; they were mostly wiped out by the Varroa mite starting in (IIRC) the late '80s. If you see an actual honeybee outside near your home, the odds are apparently overwhelming that the bee is owned by someone.

anigbrowl 11y ago
Someone owes me big time for all that pollen, then.

bsder 11y ago

The real problem is that the agribusinesses (please don't refer to them as farmers) are unwilling to make the changes to not require honeybees. If they let about 10% of their acreage go wild, native bees come in and can take over most of the load. However, that's more expensive, right now, than continuing to use honeybees. Until using honeybees gets expensive, agribusiness will not change.