5 ms·

The loss of NPAPI is what's going to drive me away. If they stick to their guns and drop NPAPI in 42 including the flags, then I'll finish my transition to maki

by criley2 11y ago

The loss of NPAPI is what's going to drive me away. If they stick to their guns and drop NPAPI in 42 including the flags, then I'll finish my transition to making Firefox my new main browser. I've heard the arguments for why it shouldn't be present, I've heard Google's argument for a more pure web experience, but quite frankly I don't care. I don't like Google's "our way is the only way" vision for the internet, where Chrome has morphed into an operating-system like amalgamation of resource heavy proprietary features, while simultaneously shutting down flags, features and settings that power users rely on to wrestle back any control at all of our own personal browsing experience. Chrome was a great step forward and I will remember it fondly, but it really is post-peak on the technology adoption curve. Google is focused only on that giant laggy late adopter side of the curve and simply could not care less about early adopters and bleeding edge users anymore. If you feel like Chrome and Google actively design against our use cases -- you're right, because the laggard phase of adoption is in full swing and we're, once again, pointless nothings and easily ignored voices, drowned out by Google's Master Vision. Oh well, Firefox has really solidified into a nice product these past few years, even if they are following Google down the stupid proprietary forced-bundled of useless features (here's looking at you, "Hello", which I ironically am not allowed to say "Goodbye" to).

ohitsdom 11y ago
Curious- what tasks do you do that are reliant on NPAPI? Job related or personal?
- bbarn 11y ago
  Not the OP but lots of people who use acrobat reader plugins to fill in / sign forms. Chrome's built in PDF reader got better, but it still can't A. post a filled form back to the browser/server or B. sign a document.
  - currysausage 11y ago
    Also, when I turn on full page view in Chrome's PDF viewer, why can't I turn pages with my mousewheel, the way I can in Adobe Reader? When I need to skim a document, doing normal scrolling with the mousewheel would give me RSI or something.
- scuba7183 11y ago
  Job related for my users. Newegg order management needs silverlight
  - ohitsdom 11y ago
    I did not realize Silverlight is a NPAPI plugin. So doesn't that mean Netflix will be inaccessible from Chrome now?
    - cwyers 11y ago
      Netflix has an HTML5 stream now, which is one of the things that's allowing Google to go ahead with this.
      - ohitsdom 11y ago
        Haven't kept up with the Netflix tech blog since they were first looking into HTML5 video, great to hear they've already rolled this out. Good for Linux, too.
- nulagrithom 11y ago
  Our Citrix log in portal uses NPAPI... Made for a rough week when that update rolled out.
makmanalp 11y ago
What's sad is that it seems FF is losing market share :( https://www.netmarketshare.com/report.aspx?qprid=1&qpaf=&qpcustom=Firefox&qpcustomb=0&qpsp=175&qpnp=21&qptimeframe=M https://www.netmarketshare.com/report.aspx?qprid=1&qpaf=&qpc... I'm really not sure how mozilla will survive without that.
- bobajeff 11y ago
  I imagine without marketshare (along with royalties from referrals to search engines) they'll start relying more on donations and open source collaborations with companies like Samsung.
wslh 11y ago
At the end competition worked for browsers. That is the main benefit of having Chrome. I remember when they launched with V8 and that pressed other actors to improve their own browsers. now this is also happening with new render engines such as Servo. Regarding NPAPI, I think it never atracted a bigger audience because the building tools (circa 2011) were difficult to use.
lectrick 11y ago
NPAPI is insecure and dates back to Netscape 2.0. Abandoning a 20 year old technology is really the final nail in the coffin for you?
- icebraining 11y ago
  Why would one care if the technology is old? Should we drop TCP too? And I don't see how it is insecure by itself; that depends on the plugins themselves, and on the websites we allow to launch them.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > Why would one care if the technology is old? Old and insecure was the issue raised by the grandparent. (And I suspect the implied part with old is "has newer alternatives which do not share its security problems".) > And I don't see how it is insecure by itself; that depends on the plugins themselves That the security depends on the plugins themselves is exactly what is insecure about it compared to more effectively sandboxed alternatives.
- Koldark 11y ago
  It might be. We use several apps that require Silverlight. I am sure Microsoft will update Silverlight in the future to work differently, but I can't do my work without Silverlight.
  - lectrick 11y ago
    Silverlight should have never been. HTML5 tech is the way forward and has been for years now. The fact that all of these demos work at the speeds that they do is proof: https://github.com/kripken/emscripten/wiki/Porting-Examples-and-Demos https://github.com/kripken/emscripten/wiki/Porting-Examples-...
- criley2 11y ago
  >Abandoning a 20 year old technology is really the final nail in the coffin for you Abandoning a useful technology with zero alternatives, telling the world to "simply get over using those previous functions and adjust to a new reality where you cannot do what you used to do" is the nail in the coffin for me. This is not a case of a legacy technology being dropped for which there are modern superior alternatives. This is a case where a core idea in web functionality has been rethought, and the powers that be have decided that we should not use web browsers in this way at all, and we will not be able to do so moving forward. And if we are given the ability back, it'll be a proprietary, non-standard, vendor hack solution that, in 20 years, will occupy the same space as NPAPI.
dragonwriter 11y ago
> The loss of NPAPI is what's going to drive me away. If they stick to their guns and drop NPAPI in 42 including the flags, then I'll finish my transition to making Firefox my new main browser. I've heard the arguments for why it shouldn't be present, I've heard Google's argument for a more pure web experience, but quite frankly I don't care. Firefox is also favoring a phase-out of NPAPI usage, for largely the same reasons, though they are dragging it out longer. NPAPI (and the IE alternative, ActiveX) are done; the only difference between the major browser vendors is the details of the phase-out. https://blog.mozilla.org/security/2014/02/28/update-on-plugin-activation/ https://blog.mozilla.org/security/2014/02/28/update-on-plugi...
- criley2 11y ago
  >Firefox is also favoring a phase-out of NPAPI usage, for largely the same reasons, though they are dragging it out longer. Guess it'll be time to say Auto Updates -> Off. Until the websites and services I use migrate to a different solution, if at all possible, I just will open myself up to vulnerabilities and security risks and stop updating at all. I wonder how many users will do the same? Maybe the browser companies will get lucky and the companies and services relying on this technology will simply fail since there is no alternative, and they won't have to deal with users holding out, since what they hold out for has been destroyed.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - MetaCosm 11y ago
    > until the websites and services I use migrate to a different solution Any public websites or services you can reference? I legitimately can't think of a single website or service I use that will be impacted. Or are you talking more about like ancient internal systems written as a java applet? > companies and services relying on [NPAPI] this technology will simply fail since there is no alternative Any company that bet their business on NPAPI deserves to fail. The signals where clear since 2012 that this was coming, and was explicitly and directly stated since 2013. They had a lot of time to transition off. A full decade ago I was helping companies transition off NPAPI because it was "legacy", "slow" and "buggy". I couldn't fathom a company being silly enough to develop a modern product using it. Most of the "major" things dependent on NPAPI have fairly clear migration paths. Java Applet -> Java Web Start. Silverlight is entirely dead (despite MS supporting it out till 2021) and there are tons of migration paths off of it.

by criley2 11y ago

ohitsdom 11y ago

Curious- what tasks do you do that are reliant on NPAPI? Job related or personal?

bbarn 11y ago
Not the OP but lots of people who use acrobat reader plugins to fill in / sign forms. Chrome's built in PDF reader got better, but it still can't A. post a filled form back to the browser/server or B. sign a document.
- currysausage 11y ago
  Also, when I turn on full page view in Chrome's PDF viewer, why can't I turn pages with my mousewheel, the way I can in Adobe Reader? When I need to skim a document, doing normal scrolling with the mousewheel would give me RSI or something.
scuba7183 11y ago
Job related for my users. Newegg order management needs silverlight
- ohitsdom 11y ago
  I did not realize Silverlight is a NPAPI plugin. So doesn't that mean Netflix will be inaccessible from Chrome now?
  - cwyers 11y ago
    Netflix has an HTML5 stream now, which is one of the things that's allowing Google to go ahead with this.
    - ohitsdom 11y ago
      Haven't kept up with the Netflix tech blog since they were first looking into HTML5 video, great to hear they've already rolled this out. Good for Linux, too.
nulagrithom 11y ago
Our Citrix log in portal uses NPAPI... Made for a rough week when that update rolled out.

makmanalp 11y ago

What's sad is that it seems FF is losing market share :( https://www.netmarketshare.com/report.aspx?qprid=1&qpaf=&qpcustom=Firefox&qpcustomb=0&qpsp=175&qpnp=21&qptimeframe=M https://www.netmarketshare.com/report.aspx?qprid=1&qpaf=&qpc... I'm really not sure how mozilla will survive without that.

bobajeff 11y ago
I imagine without marketshare (along with royalties from referrals to search engines) they'll start relying more on donations and open source collaborations with companies like Samsung.

wslh 11y ago

At the end competition worked for browsers. That is the main benefit of having Chrome. I remember when they launched with V8 and that pressed other actors to improve their own browsers. now this is also happening with new render engines such as Servo. Regarding NPAPI, I think it never atracted a bigger audience because the building tools (circa 2011) were difficult to use.

lectrick 11y ago

NPAPI is insecure and dates back to Netscape 2.0. Abandoning a 20 year old technology is really the final nail in the coffin for you?

icebraining 11y ago
Why would one care if the technology is old? Should we drop TCP too? And I don't see how it is insecure by itself; that depends on the plugins themselves, and on the websites we allow to launch them.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > Why would one care if the technology is old? Old and insecure was the issue raised by the grandparent. (And I suspect the implied part with old is "has newer alternatives which do not share its security problems".) > And I don't see how it is insecure by itself; that depends on the plugins themselves That the security depends on the plugins themselves is exactly what is insecure about it compared to more effectively sandboxed alternatives.
Koldark 11y ago
It might be. We use several apps that require Silverlight. I am sure Microsoft will update Silverlight in the future to work differently, but I can't do my work without Silverlight.
- lectrick 11y ago
  Silverlight should have never been. HTML5 tech is the way forward and has been for years now. The fact that all of these demos work at the speeds that they do is proof: https://github.com/kripken/emscripten/wiki/Porting-Examples-and-Demos https://github.com/kripken/emscripten/wiki/Porting-Examples-...
criley2 11y ago
>Abandoning a 20 year old technology is really the final nail in the coffin for you Abandoning a useful technology with zero alternatives, telling the world to "simply get over using those previous functions and adjust to a new reality where you cannot do what you used to do" is the nail in the coffin for me. This is not a case of a legacy technology being dropped for which there are modern superior alternatives. This is a case where a core idea in web functionality has been rethought, and the powers that be have decided that we should not use web browsers in this way at all, and we will not be able to do so moving forward. And if we are given the ability back, it'll be a proprietary, non-standard, vendor hack solution that, in 20 years, will occupy the same space as NPAPI.

dragonwriter 11y ago

> The loss of NPAPI is what's going to drive me away. If they stick to their guns and drop NPAPI in 42 including the flags, then I'll finish my transition to making Firefox my new main browser. I've heard the arguments for why it shouldn't be present, I've heard Google's argument for a more pure web experience, but quite frankly I don't care. Firefox is also favoring a phase-out of NPAPI usage, for largely the same reasons, though they are dragging it out longer. NPAPI (and the IE alternative, ActiveX) are done; the only difference between the major browser vendors is the details of the phase-out. https://blog.mozilla.org/security/2014/02/28/update-on-plugin-activation/ https://blog.mozilla.org/security/2014/02/28/update-on-plugi...

criley2 11y ago
>Firefox is also favoring a phase-out of NPAPI usage, for largely the same reasons, though they are dragging it out longer. Guess it'll be time to say Auto Updates -> Off. Until the websites and services I use migrate to a different solution, if at all possible, I just will open myself up to vulnerabilities and security risks and stop updating at all. I wonder how many users will do the same? Maybe the browser companies will get lucky and the companies and services relying on this technology will simply fail since there is no alternative, and they won't have to deal with users holding out, since what they hold out for has been destroyed.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- MetaCosm 11y ago
  > until the websites and services I use migrate to a different solution Any public websites or services you can reference? I legitimately can't think of a single website or service I use that will be impacted. Or are you talking more about like ancient internal systems written as a java applet? > companies and services relying on [NPAPI] this technology will simply fail since there is no alternative Any company that bet their business on NPAPI deserves to fail. The signals where clear since 2012 that this was coming, and was explicitly and directly stated since 2013. They had a lot of time to transition off. A full decade ago I was helping companies transition off NPAPI because it was "legacy", "slow" and "buggy". I couldn't fathom a company being silly enough to develop a modern product using it. Most of the "major" things dependent on NPAPI have fairly clear migration paths. Java Applet -> Java Web Start. Silverlight is entirely dead (despite MS supporting it out till 2021) and there are tons of migration paths off of it.