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One possible confusion: "libertarian" clearly here means "anarchist", which is different from the common US meaning. (Most of the world uses anarchist in its hi

One possible confusion: "libertarian" clearly here means "anarchist", which is different from the common US meaning. (Most of the world uses anarchist in its historic meaning, which predates the US right wing coopting the term.) > "One young guy who made a big mistake had been expelled from the space. To keep him from returning, there was a poster with a big photo of him : “If you see him come back, throw him out.” It’s extremely violent. From planet France, we tell ourselves that we would never do that in organizations or associations. Bay Area hackers are unflexible about certain rules, such as sexual harassment, for example." I hope I misunderstand this. His version of "French" culture sounds like savagery. I'll pass this to my French friends for their insights.

hoopd 11y ago
Being a French sociologist he would probably find the U.S.'s definitions of anarchism and libertarianism a bit quaint :) It sounds like his version of French culture is less savage? He was saying he found the American hackerspace to be extremely violent. It's no surprise he feels this way, some radical lefties feel it's important to make examples of people for breaking social norms to the extent of running people out of town. I've also seen social punishments for not participating in ostracizing the wrongdoer, like if you don't help shame them maybe you don't value your place in the community.
- hoopd 11y ago
  Why would I get downvoted here? I'm not the one who described the social structure of the hackerspace as 'extremely violent.' It was the professional sociologist who said that. I'm just trying to help people understand why he might feel that way.
- johnmaguire2013 11y ago
  "radical lefties"? Sure, I'm sure there are some "radical lefties" that feel "it's important to make examples of people for breaking social norms." But that's definitely more characteristic of the (far) right. Being more conservative, those conservative ideals are enforced through social norms (i.e. excluding those who don't fit their views of what's normal -- think of LGBT kids kicked out to the street, for example.)
  - hoopd 11y ago
    Not everything has to be a "but the conservatives are worse!" Even if they are, it's no excuse. I don't know the individuals from the article but I've witnessed what he's talking about and I think he described it accurately.
derrida 11y ago
The term libertarian was first coined by Joseph Déjacque https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_D%C3%A9jacque https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_D%C3%A9jacque ... a French anarcho-communist, to describe, himself. It's important to note, that the US is the exception to the rule here. But even within the US, Noam Chomsky, the worlds most cited intellectual quantified by the post-enlightenment journal system, self-describes as a libertarian socialist. And there's no doubt that he is on the left. I think it's use in the US is a product of the fact there is no Labor / Socialist party that is the main center left party. So the Democrats are "Liberals" and a word had to be used for those who were on the right, but liberal. I think the modern, US-centered, use of Libertarian for "conservative economics, socially liberal" can be dated "post-Regan" if I'm not mistaken?
Animats 11y ago
From Noisebridge's rules: "Noisebridge is dedicated to providing a harassment-free experience for everyone, regardless of gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race, religion, housing status, or language."[1] That's very San Francisco. French culture is much more judgmental. [1] https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Anti-harassment_policy https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Anti-harassment_policy

hoopd 11y ago

Being a French sociologist he would probably find the U.S.'s definitions of anarchism and libertarianism a bit quaint :) It sounds like his version of French culture is less savage? He was saying he found the American hackerspace to be extremely violent. It's no surprise he feels this way, some radical lefties feel it's important to make examples of people for breaking social norms to the extent of running people out of town. I've also seen social punishments for not participating in ostracizing the wrongdoer, like if you don't help shame them maybe you don't value your place in the community.

hoopd 11y ago
Why would I get downvoted here? I'm not the one who described the social structure of the hackerspace as 'extremely violent.' It was the professional sociologist who said that. I'm just trying to help people understand why he might feel that way.
johnmaguire2013 11y ago
"radical lefties"? Sure, I'm sure there are some "radical lefties" that feel "it's important to make examples of people for breaking social norms." But that's definitely more characteristic of the (far) right. Being more conservative, those conservative ideals are enforced through social norms (i.e. excluding those who don't fit their views of what's normal -- think of LGBT kids kicked out to the street, for example.)
- hoopd 11y ago
  Not everything has to be a "but the conservatives are worse!" Even if they are, it's no excuse. I don't know the individuals from the article but I've witnessed what he's talking about and I think he described it accurately.

derrida 11y ago

The term libertarian was first coined by Joseph Déjacque https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_D%C3%A9jacque https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_D%C3%A9jacque ... a French anarcho-communist, to describe, himself. It's important to note, that the US is the exception to the rule here. But even within the US, Noam Chomsky, the worlds most cited intellectual quantified by the post-enlightenment journal system, self-describes as a libertarian socialist. And there's no doubt that he is on the left. I think it's use in the US is a product of the fact there is no Labor / Socialist party that is the main center left party. So the Democrats are "Liberals" and a word had to be used for those who were on the right, but liberal. I think the modern, US-centered, use of Libertarian for "conservative economics, socially liberal" can be dated "post-Regan" if I'm not mistaken?

Animats 11y ago

From Noisebridge's rules: "Noisebridge is dedicated to providing a harassment-free experience for everyone, regardless of gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, race, religion, housing status, or language."[1] That's very San Francisco. French culture is much more judgmental. [1] https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Anti-harassment_policy https://www.noisebridge.net/wiki/Anti-harassment_policy