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|| they can have this feature today and in 6 months we grind to a halt Buy some daisies and chocolate for the PMs you work with... because here's how that woul

|| they can have this feature today and in 6 months we grind to a halt Buy some daisies and chocolate for the PMs you work with... because here's how that would go over with the ones I've had: PM: "Yes! Cut all corners and get it done today!" ...6 Months go by... PM: "I came up with a new idea for that! Today, please!" DEV: "But remember..." PM:"Today, thanks!"

moron4hire 11y ago
You do a job. There is a reason you are there, and it's not to write code. It's to fulfill requests. Feel free to provide advice on how best to fulfill those requests, provide feedback, ask for clarification, etc. But at the end of the day, all you do is what you are told. It's not to anticipate what they will want in 6 months, because you'll be wrong just as often as right and you'll be in the same scenario. Just do your job. So when you're told to cut corners today, then in 6 months you can't make magic happen to grant their every whim, you have to let it blow up. They want to be the leader. They are responsible for the failings of the team. You have to play chicken with them. Because every time you capitulate, all they know is "I got what I wanted". They don't care how much you complained or how many hours off the clock you worked. And honestly, if you tell them it can't be done overnight, and then you do it overnight, you're a liar and they won't trust your judgement ever again. When you say, "can't do it", you have to not do it. Don't make magic happen. Or just don't work at such places. I have thankfully been out of that bullshit for three years running now.
- omouse 11y ago
  That's the everyday struggle; as developers we can produce so much wealth just by typing at a keyboard. Yet we let ourselves be controlled by people who don't know what's what and can't even prove their ideas have any return on investment. As you say, don't make magic happen. It doesn't matter how cool it would be if, or how you think you'll show them your ideas are better; when you say "it cannot be done" don't go and try and do it. Don't let the manager bully you and don't let them try and get another developer to tackle the impossible. I've had that happen to me where I said it will take X amount of time to do it so let's not do it till next sprint. Then the manager went around my back when I was gone for a day and gave the task to another dev. The dev, who caused the mess, of course was able to fix it within an hour. Why did I say X amount of time? To cleanup and make sure the bug stays fixed. When you work with other developers, actually work together. Stand up for them, don't make bad comments about them, and always stick together when you're asked to do the impossible.
  - sokoloff 11y ago
    If I understand your story correctly, that other dev accomplished the task in some characteristically short amount of time, plus an hour for fixing a bug. While you didn't specify what your "X" was, it sounds like the manager (and the company) got a better outcome by going around you and it was far from being "asked to do the impossible".
    - _asummers 11y ago
      I believe his point was that there's often a difference between finishing the task and actually fixing the issue.
    - collyw 11y ago
      Because the quickest way to fix something is usually the most robust solution for the long term?
    - omouse 11y ago
      I'm not going to slag on the developer; the manager got a better short term outcome. The longer than 1 week outcome is that I've had to go back and re-visit that code and make sure it's "done done for reals it's done" due to the lack of unit tests and thorough thought given to it. On a long enough timeline, the better outcome turns into multiple bugs.
  - moron4hire 11y ago
    This is what I'm talking about with offering the alternatives. You can't hide the distasteful "make the pain go away, but not fix the underlying problem" option. You have to give people enough rope to hang themselves, which is thankfully also the same thing as giving them the opportunity to surprise you with their leadership. When you have a heavy-handed PM over you, you have to give them all the information, force the decision on them. Don't make the decisions for them that option A or option B is best. If they want to lead, they have to take responsibility for this stuff. It's up to you to present the options appropriately. "A) I hide the bug, maybe takes an hour, B) I fix it, probably takes a week". You don't know, you might be surprised, he might tell you "do both, A right now then get right on B." Or he might only be interested in A. Either way, if you don't want responsibility for the failures, you have to abdicate responsibility for the successes.
sirmarksalot 11y ago
It sounds like you have a bad relationship with your PM. I've been in that situation before (seriously, check my post history), and it poisoned my attitude for quite a while. There are a lot of terrible PMs out there, but there are also a lot of really good ones, and you learn to suss out which is which when you're interviewing for a new team. If you read Rands in Repose and start wishing your PM actually thought and cared about the things he talks about, maybe you need to find a new job.
crdoconnor 11y ago
This is what you do with the ones you work with: >PM: "Yes! Cut all corners and get it done today!" You: Can I get that in writing, please?

moron4hire 11y ago

You do a job. There is a reason you are there, and it's not to write code. It's to fulfill requests. Feel free to provide advice on how best to fulfill those requests, provide feedback, ask for clarification, etc. But at the end of the day, all you do is what you are told. It's not to anticipate what they will want in 6 months, because you'll be wrong just as often as right and you'll be in the same scenario. Just do your job. So when you're told to cut corners today, then in 6 months you can't make magic happen to grant their every whim, you have to let it blow up. They want to be the leader. They are responsible for the failings of the team. You have to play chicken with them. Because every time you capitulate, all they know is "I got what I wanted". They don't care how much you complained or how many hours off the clock you worked. And honestly, if you tell them it can't be done overnight, and then you do it overnight, you're a liar and they won't trust your judgement ever again. When you say, "can't do it", you have to not do it. Don't make magic happen. Or just don't work at such places. I have thankfully been out of that bullshit for three years running now.

omouse 11y ago
That's the everyday struggle; as developers we can produce so much wealth just by typing at a keyboard. Yet we let ourselves be controlled by people who don't know what's what and can't even prove their ideas have any return on investment. As you say, don't make magic happen. It doesn't matter how cool it would be if, or how you think you'll show them your ideas are better; when you say "it cannot be done" don't go and try and do it. Don't let the manager bully you and don't let them try and get another developer to tackle the impossible. I've had that happen to me where I said it will take X amount of time to do it so let's not do it till next sprint. Then the manager went around my back when I was gone for a day and gave the task to another dev. The dev, who caused the mess, of course was able to fix it within an hour. Why did I say X amount of time? To cleanup and make sure the bug stays fixed. When you work with other developers, actually work together. Stand up for them, don't make bad comments about them, and always stick together when you're asked to do the impossible.
- sokoloff 11y ago
  If I understand your story correctly, that other dev accomplished the task in some characteristically short amount of time, plus an hour for fixing a bug. While you didn't specify what your "X" was, it sounds like the manager (and the company) got a better outcome by going around you and it was far from being "asked to do the impossible".
  - _asummers 11y ago
    I believe his point was that there's often a difference between finishing the task and actually fixing the issue.
  - collyw 11y ago
    Because the quickest way to fix something is usually the most robust solution for the long term?
  - omouse 11y ago
    I'm not going to slag on the developer; the manager got a better short term outcome. The longer than 1 week outcome is that I've had to go back and re-visit that code and make sure it's "done done for reals it's done" due to the lack of unit tests and thorough thought given to it. On a long enough timeline, the better outcome turns into multiple bugs.
- moron4hire 11y ago
  This is what I'm talking about with offering the alternatives. You can't hide the distasteful "make the pain go away, but not fix the underlying problem" option. You have to give people enough rope to hang themselves, which is thankfully also the same thing as giving them the opportunity to surprise you with their leadership. When you have a heavy-handed PM over you, you have to give them all the information, force the decision on them. Don't make the decisions for them that option A or option B is best. If they want to lead, they have to take responsibility for this stuff. It's up to you to present the options appropriately. "A) I hide the bug, maybe takes an hour, B) I fix it, probably takes a week". You don't know, you might be surprised, he might tell you "do both, A right now then get right on B." Or he might only be interested in A. Either way, if you don't want responsibility for the failures, you have to abdicate responsibility for the successes.

sirmarksalot 11y ago

It sounds like you have a bad relationship with your PM. I've been in that situation before (seriously, check my post history), and it poisoned my attitude for quite a while. There are a lot of terrible PMs out there, but there are also a lot of really good ones, and you learn to suss out which is which when you're interviewing for a new team. If you read Rands in Repose and start wishing your PM actually thought and cared about the things he talks about, maybe you need to find a new job.

crdoconnor 11y ago

This is what you do with the ones you work with: >PM: "Yes! Cut all corners and get it done today!" You: Can I get that in writing, please?