4 ms·

"Not neighborly" is not a crime; you can't even sensibly define what it would mean... Yes, the nature of living in a society with humans is that you sometimes

by zorpner 11y ago

"Not neighborly" is not a crime; you can't even sensibly define what it would mean... Yes, the nature of living in a society with humans is that you sometimes have to take situations on a case-by-case basis, and cannot have a single set of rules that will guide you to correct action in all circumstances. (Also, does "quiet-enjoyment-type laws" sound like dystopian doublespeak to anyone else, or is it just me?) "Quiet enjoyment" is the technical term. Between the intellectually dishonest rhetorical device of calling something I said "dystopian" and your absurd assertion that one could use a noise ordinance against short-term tenants, it's pretty clear that you're not arguing in good faith here.

JoshTriplett 11y ago
> Yes, the nature of living in a society with humans is that you sometimes have to take situations on a case-by-case basis, and cannot have a single set of rules that will guide you to correct action in all circumstances. That's a very old and ongoing argument, between having a concrete set of potentially inflexible laws (which are particularly dangerous when they restrict the human capacity for understanding and forgiveness), and having the arbitrary and changing moral sensibilities of humans ("I'll know it when I see it"). Both have their own set of bugs. I don't think it's reasonable to universally say you cannot have a single set of rules that works everywhere, nor is it reasonable to always defer to collective moral sensibility (which often gets the wrong answer as well). I do, however, think it's reasonable with either approach to limit outrage and sensibilities to what actually affects people, rather than proxies for that, or worse yet things that neighbors have no business controlling. > "Quiet enjoyment" is the technical term. I never said it wasn't, and I didn't intend it as a rhetorical device; sorry if it came across as such. I meant it as a genuine question; it seems like an odd term, compared to for instance "noise ordinance" or similar.
- zorpner 11y ago
  I meant it as a genuine question; it seems like an odd term, compared to for instance "noise ordinance" or similar. Gotcha, I interpreted that as you saying I was using doublespeak, rather than that the term itself was doublespeak-ish. Apologies for the misinterpretation.
baddox 11y ago
> the nature of living in a society with humans is that you sometimes have to take situations on a case-by-case basis, and cannot have a single set of rules that will guide you to correct action in all circumstances. Which sounds like a great reason to not have a rule prohibiting short-term occupants in residential zones.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  Look at it the other way. If you have a short-term tenant that behaves, your neighbors probably won't notice, and even if they do, they won't care. It's normal that sometimes you want a friend / family member / (boy|girl)friend to stay over. It's entirely fair to make a blanket ban on subletting but not enforce it too eagerly. This way, you're taking the responsibility for people which you invited to stay.
  - baddox 11y ago
    That might work in practice, depending on the community culture. But I am not generally a fan of prosecutorial discretion because of how ridiculously easy it makes unfair enforcement.
    - TeMPOraL 11y ago
      > But I am not generally a fan of prosecutorial discretion because of how ridiculously easy it makes unfair enforcement. I consider it to be a lubricant in the engine of law. You can't run law to the letter, because defining the law is an AI-complete problem. The law tends to have more corner cases the more detailed you make it, and by executing it unconditionally, with maximum efficiency, you're going to harm a lot of innocent people. On the other hand, too much grease, and the engine won't run at all. That's why I often remark about the importance of trust on a societal level, and my dislike towards the current trend of replacing trust with trustless systems. Trust is what keeps society together, and what allows it to work without humans having godlike introspection and cognitive powers.
- mercer 11y ago
  I'd say that the whole problem of having short-term tenants is precisely that you're pretty much forced to come up with 'a single set of rules' to force them to behave, due to transitory and impersonal nature of it. The organic nature of case-by-case resolution of issues pretty much requires a long-term tenant that has some for of long-term relationship to the property and neighbors. Social pressure and personal responsibility come into play. It's the difference (roughly) between a teacher-student and a parent-child relationship. In the former case, the (usual) lack of personal ties requires explicit rules. In the latter case, a lot of rules and conflict-resolution is more organic and case-by-case.

by zorpner 11y ago

JoshTriplett 11y ago

> Yes, the nature of living in a society with humans is that you sometimes have to take situations on a case-by-case basis, and cannot have a single set of rules that will guide you to correct action in all circumstances. That's a very old and ongoing argument, between having a concrete set of potentially inflexible laws (which are particularly dangerous when they restrict the human capacity for understanding and forgiveness), and having the arbitrary and changing moral sensibilities of humans ("I'll know it when I see it"). Both have their own set of bugs. I don't think it's reasonable to universally say you cannot have a single set of rules that works everywhere, nor is it reasonable to always defer to collective moral sensibility (which often gets the wrong answer as well). I do, however, think it's reasonable with either approach to limit outrage and sensibilities to what actually affects people, rather than proxies for that, or worse yet things that neighbors have no business controlling. > "Quiet enjoyment" is the technical term. I never said it wasn't, and I didn't intend it as a rhetorical device; sorry if it came across as such. I meant it as a genuine question; it seems like an odd term, compared to for instance "noise ordinance" or similar.

zorpner 11y ago
I meant it as a genuine question; it seems like an odd term, compared to for instance "noise ordinance" or similar. Gotcha, I interpreted that as you saying I was using doublespeak, rather than that the term itself was doublespeak-ish. Apologies for the misinterpretation.

baddox 11y ago

> the nature of living in a society with humans is that you sometimes have to take situations on a case-by-case basis, and cannot have a single set of rules that will guide you to correct action in all circumstances. Which sounds like a great reason to not have a rule prohibiting short-term occupants in residential zones.

TeMPOraL 11y ago
Look at it the other way. If you have a short-term tenant that behaves, your neighbors probably won't notice, and even if they do, they won't care. It's normal that sometimes you want a friend / family member / (boy|girl)friend to stay over. It's entirely fair to make a blanket ban on subletting but not enforce it too eagerly. This way, you're taking the responsibility for people which you invited to stay.
- baddox 11y ago
  That might work in practice, depending on the community culture. But I am not generally a fan of prosecutorial discretion because of how ridiculously easy it makes unfair enforcement.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    > But I am not generally a fan of prosecutorial discretion because of how ridiculously easy it makes unfair enforcement. I consider it to be a lubricant in the engine of law. You can't run law to the letter, because defining the law is an AI-complete problem. The law tends to have more corner cases the more detailed you make it, and by executing it unconditionally, with maximum efficiency, you're going to harm a lot of innocent people. On the other hand, too much grease, and the engine won't run at all. That's why I often remark about the importance of trust on a societal level, and my dislike towards the current trend of replacing trust with trustless systems. Trust is what keeps society together, and what allows it to work without humans having godlike introspection and cognitive powers.
mercer 11y ago
I'd say that the whole problem of having short-term tenants is precisely that you're pretty much forced to come up with 'a single set of rules' to force them to behave, due to transitory and impersonal nature of it. The organic nature of case-by-case resolution of issues pretty much requires a long-term tenant that has some for of long-term relationship to the property and neighbors. Social pressure and personal responsibility come into play. It's the difference (roughly) between a teacher-student and a parent-child relationship. In the former case, the (usual) lack of personal ties requires explicit rules. In the latter case, a lot of rules and conflict-resolution is more organic and case-by-case.