6 ms·

I'm saying that these externalities seem like they can be dealt with directly, by rules requiring doors to be closed, rules about the treatment of common areas,

by baddox 12y ago

I'm saying that these externalities seem like they can be dealt with directly, by rules requiring doors to be closed, rules about the treatment of common areas, noise limits, etc. without any reference to the duration of residents' stays.

tptacek 12y ago
Those rules already exist. In a medium-sized apartment building with common areas, leases assuredly spell these things out. The problem is that rules in leases aren't effectively binding on short-term tenants, because it takes longer to enforce the rules than those short-term tenants will be staying anyways. Also, you can reasonably assume that boilerplate leases for apartment buildings forbid directly these kinds of short-term rentals. Most boilerplate leases require individual approval by the landlord for any sublessors.
- baddox 12y ago
  > The problem is that rules in leases aren't effectively binding on short-term tenants, because it takes longer to enforce the rules than those short-term tenants will be staying anyways. Why aren't they binding on the property owner, thus disincentivizing owners from renting out the property?
  - tptacek 12y ago
    The process we use to accomplish that is called "zoning law".
    - baddox 12y ago
      You're just dropping back to the top of the conversation, before I brought up the issue of regulating specific symptoms rather than one potential cause (short-term rental).
oh_sigh 12y ago
There is no realistic way of policing short term tenants. Sure, you can leave them a bad air bnb review. But then they will leave you a bad air bnb review for retalation, so you don't want to do that. How do you punish someone who breaks the rules for a one night stay? People with long term leases can be threatened with eviction for breaking the rules, which usually carries with it pretty big expenditures of time and money for moving, finding another apartment, etc. People who show up with all of their possessions in a suit case and stay for 1-2 nights don't have much to worry about.
- baddox 12y ago
  I'm not suggesting you personally punish short term tenants. You would punish the property owner.
  - oh_sigh 12y ago
    Who punishes the property owner? Where do the fines go? Do I get some of it, since I had to deal with people puking 2 liters of half digested wine and hot dogs onto my door?
    - baddox 12y ago
      I don't understand. I'm not arguing for some new group that implements and enforces these rules. I'm just suggesting that rules based on specific community problems (like noise) make more sense than on the much broader potential problem of short-term occupants. The fines can go the same place they currently go. I don't know where that is, or if neighbors receive any of it, but that is a separate issue that also applies to long-term occupants puking on your door.
      - wpietri 12y ago
        Long-term issues are nominally solved by mainly eviction and/or lawsuit. But they are in practice solved by neighbors working out polite understandings because they don't want to deal with angry neighbors and/or eviction/lawsuit. Short term occupants don't have the same incentive to be neighborly because they'll be gone soon. And the threat of eviction is basically useless against somebody who's planning to leave anyhow. The related theoretical construct is Prisoner's Dilemma as compared with Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma. Or in IPD-land, it's where ω is low (short-term rentals) versus high (long-term rentals): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evolution_of_Cooperation#Foundation_of_reciprocal_cooperation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evolution_of_Cooperation#Fo...

by baddox 12y ago

tptacek 12y ago

Those rules already exist. In a medium-sized apartment building with common areas, leases assuredly spell these things out. The problem is that rules in leases aren't effectively binding on short-term tenants, because it takes longer to enforce the rules than those short-term tenants will be staying anyways. Also, you can reasonably assume that boilerplate leases for apartment buildings forbid directly these kinds of short-term rentals. Most boilerplate leases require individual approval by the landlord for any sublessors.

baddox 12y ago
> The problem is that rules in leases aren't effectively binding on short-term tenants, because it takes longer to enforce the rules than those short-term tenants will be staying anyways. Why aren't they binding on the property owner, thus disincentivizing owners from renting out the property?
- tptacek 12y ago
  The process we use to accomplish that is called "zoning law".
  - baddox 12y ago
    You're just dropping back to the top of the conversation, before I brought up the issue of regulating specific symptoms rather than one potential cause (short-term rental).

oh_sigh 12y ago

There is no realistic way of policing short term tenants. Sure, you can leave them a bad air bnb review. But then they will leave you a bad air bnb review for retalation, so you don't want to do that. How do you punish someone who breaks the rules for a one night stay? People with long term leases can be threatened with eviction for breaking the rules, which usually carries with it pretty big expenditures of time and money for moving, finding another apartment, etc. People who show up with all of their possessions in a suit case and stay for 1-2 nights don't have much to worry about.

baddox 12y ago
I'm not suggesting you personally punish short term tenants. You would punish the property owner.
- oh_sigh 12y ago
  Who punishes the property owner? Where do the fines go? Do I get some of it, since I had to deal with people puking 2 liters of half digested wine and hot dogs onto my door?
  - baddox 12y ago
    I don't understand. I'm not arguing for some new group that implements and enforces these rules. I'm just suggesting that rules based on specific community problems (like noise) make more sense than on the much broader potential problem of short-term occupants. The fines can go the same place they currently go. I don't know where that is, or if neighbors receive any of it, but that is a separate issue that also applies to long-term occupants puking on your door.
    - wpietri 12y ago
      Long-term issues are nominally solved by mainly eviction and/or lawsuit. But they are in practice solved by neighbors working out polite understandings because they don't want to deal with angry neighbors and/or eviction/lawsuit. Short term occupants don't have the same incentive to be neighborly because they'll be gone soon. And the threat of eviction is basically useless against somebody who's planning to leave anyhow. The related theoretical construct is Prisoner's Dilemma as compared with Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma. Or in IPD-land, it's where ω is low (short-term rentals) versus high (long-term rentals): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evolution_of_Cooperation#Foundation_of_reciprocal_cooperation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evolution_of_Cooperation#Fo...