6 ms·

Lathes should also be outlawed, they've had the capability to create untraceable weapons for decades!

by quasse 11y ago

untog 11y ago
You can't make a handgun with a lathe, though. Look, I get the point - excessive regulation is silly. But the idea of a 3D printed gun is without comparison in today's society.
- pen2l 11y ago
  It's not without comparison in today's society. Because, well, guns exist. Equipment that gun manufacturers use (which is probably a combination of lathe machines, milling machines, etc.) are not illegal for someone to have. There is probably regulation that those big machines have to be installed in your facility to some codes, but nothing that a normal person couldn't have have if they had the will and the money. Anyway, that said, I think you're wrong factually too -- 5-axis milling machines have existed for a long time and they can create practically anything a 3d printer can (with much, much higher resolution if you've got the money).
  - untog 11y ago
    This is going down a needlessly technical route. The overarching point is that it's possible to create something that is normally sold in a regulated, tightly controlled setting. Now, either everyone should be allowed a gun without background checks etc., or lathes/3D printers/whatever that can manufacture a gun are a problem.
    - salgernon 11y ago
      More likely, the 3d printed gun fanatics will be evolving themselves out of the gene pool as their printed receivers fail to contain the charge and they all wind up with stumps for hands or worse.
  - batbomb 11y ago
    The difference is the learning curve and cost. It was the same thing in 1993, connected computers existed for a long time before that, but they were pricy and there was a steeper learning curve in the 80s to getting online. Even if the learning curve itself didn't drop, it's easier to surmount the learning curve when there is a critical mass. With computers, prices dropped and the learning curve wasn't much of an issue anymore. CNC Mills and lathes still require a much greater skill and up-front cost than a 3D printer needs. With CNC machines, there's usually still an additional necessary step required to turn a model into a tool path, based on your machines. So you still have a learning curve no matter which way you cut it (pun intended). I don't think 3D printing will be a viable way to distributively mass-produce weapons, it's the fact that somebody already has been able to produce functional weapons with 3D printing, and it's comparatively much easier buying a $10K mill and generating tool paths.
    - pen2l 11y ago
      > CNC Mills and lathes still require a much greater skill and up-front cost than a 3D printer needs. I think you're not up to date with recent developments in this space. What you say is no longer true with things like Carbide3d and Carvey. With this new line of "Desktop CNC milling" machines, it's as easy as 3dprinting (if not easier). And the price is comparable (if not cheaper). E.g., compare the Carvey with a Makerbot... or an Ultimaker. It's cheaper than both. If you're willing to be brave and buy a kit, it's even cheaper. Heck, even before this wave you could get a CNC router for very cheap. You could be under the 4 figure range -- with 3d printing it's hard to go below 4 figures and get a decent and reliable machine (though admittedly it very much is possible).
      - jlees 11y ago
        That's interesting, I had always thought the same as the poster you're replying to. It really shows the psychological/brand difference. I'm far more likely to go out and buy a 3D printer. Perhaps it's the word "printer" or it's some imagined preconceptions about the learning curve -- there is a lot of effort going into making 3D printing super accessible right now, and that's the problem pointed out a few comments up this thread. When it's accessible to everybody it's accessible to the people we forgot were also included in "everybody", those with bad intentions -- or simply different ones, such as maximising their personal profit from an apartment rather than living there and being part of the neighbourhood. If we start seeing mainstream magazines talk about desktop CNC milling machines and classes pop up to teach kids how to use them -- and you know, with the Maker movement that's certainly possible and is probably already happening somewhere -- then these technologies become just as "dangerous" as 3D printers.
- ta87878 11y ago
  You can't make a handgun with a lathe, though. You can get pretty close with computer controlled mills that exist today, a lot closer than with the 3D printers that exist today.
  - abakker 11y ago
    And, you can put a bullet in the end of a pipe pretty easily. It doesn't have to be a good gun, after all.
    - vacri 11y ago
      If the quality of the gun was irrelevant to the effectiveness of the weapon, the military would be armed with homemade zipguns.
      - eonw 11y ago
        assassinations and such only require single uses. different tools for different jobs.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    We've been building decent guns for hundreds of years. You don't need computer controlled anything to make a working firearm for murder or self-defense.
- evilduck 11y ago
  You can sure as hell make a zip gun with a lathe, while you can't make a handgun or a zip gun entirely out of ABS plastic.
- jboggan 11y ago
  Watch this kid's YouTube channel - you don't need anything as fancy as a 3D printer or even a lathe. Basic welding or even just sawing off pipes gets you a lot. Here's a handgun he made at home: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFzmt3q3msQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFzmt3q3msQ
  - cbd1984 11y ago
    They used to be called "zip guns" or "Saturday night specials": Cheap, sometimes home-made firearms with mostly coincidental accuracy (You hit what you were aiming at? Pure coincidence!) and a penchant for exploding in the user's hand. They're to mass-produced firearms what cheap bathtub hooch is to Jim Beam. Wikipedia mentions them along with much more sophisticated designs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improvised_firearm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improvised_firearm
    - x0054 11y ago
      I once watched a Vice documentary about Afghanistan, name escapes me at the moment, and they showed this blind guy making a replica of a Russian Makarov handgun by hand, with very basic tools. We used to manufacture revolvers before 3D printers, the industrial age, modern welding techniques, or pretty much most of the technology we enjoy today. The truth is, you can make a perfectly untraceable, very reliable, simple gun with out 3D printers.
      - cbd1984 11y ago
        > The truth is, you can make a perfectly untraceable, very reliable, simple gun with out 3D printers. ... if you invest a lot in the proper materials, tooling, and skill set.
        15155 11y ago
        Takes way, way less time and energy to learn how to use a mill than to try and print a single-shot ABS weapon on most hobby-grade 3D printers. Not to mention, the results you'd see from a mill are much safer, reliable, effective, etc.
- bmelton 11y ago
  "You can't make a handgun with a lathe, though" Well, you'd need a ball end mill, but you can definitely convert an 80% handgun to a 100% handgun in your garage, and it is 100% legal to do so. http://aresarmor.com/store/Item/rudius1911 http://aresarmor.com/store/Item/rudius1911
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  To add to other comments - it's not that we invented guns after developing CNC technology. We've been using firearms for hundreds of years, and this alone should tell you it's entirely doable to manufacture a gun at home, especially with ammunition being already available. And even using old manufacturing methods, you can still apply all the scientific and technological development we've made, because the knowledge is available on the Internet.
- 15155 11y ago
  It's legal to produce a firearm for personal use (in the vast majority of the US). I can personally 3D print one, turn one on a mill (CNC or not), drill-out an 80% AR lower with a drill press, purchase one, be gifted one. A 3D printer is a poor, poor device among most of those options (and mostlikely more expensive). You'll also notice that none of the above manufacturing devices are outlawed or regulated in any form.Why do 3D printers need to be called out?
  - seanp2k2 11y ago
    Because lots of people don't understand what 3D printing is and figure it's a device where you do....something...and the thing you're printing pops out, ready to use. Most people who have seen what ~current hobby-grade 3D printers are capable of with ABS or PLA realize how ridiculous it is, but people who see "you can now 3D print a gun!" on TV news might not.
  - ta87878 11y ago
    I'm not sure "purchase one" and "be gifted one" count as "personal use". Purchasing, in particular is (I am guessing, I am not a lawyer) commercial activity.
    - 15155 11y ago
      I become the sole, lawful owner of the firearm in both scenarios. The firearm itself serves no commercial purpose. That is what I meant by "personal use." Both activities are protected by the Constitution of the United States of America.

Lathes should also be outlawed, they've had the capability to create untraceable weapons for decades!

by quasse 11y ago

Lathes should also be outlawed, they've had the capability to create untraceable weapons for decades!

untog 11y ago

You can't make a handgun with a lathe, though. Look, I get the point - excessive regulation is silly. But the idea of a 3D printed gun is without comparison in today's society.

pen2l 11y ago
It's not without comparison in today's society. Because, well, guns exist. Equipment that gun manufacturers use (which is probably a combination of lathe machines, milling machines, etc.) are not illegal for someone to have. There is probably regulation that those big machines have to be installed in your facility to some codes, but nothing that a normal person couldn't have have if they had the will and the money. Anyway, that said, I think you're wrong factually too -- 5-axis milling machines have existed for a long time and they can create practically anything a 3d printer can (with much, much higher resolution if you've got the money).
- untog 11y ago
  This is going down a needlessly technical route. The overarching point is that it's possible to create something that is normally sold in a regulated, tightly controlled setting. Now, either everyone should be allowed a gun without background checks etc., or lathes/3D printers/whatever that can manufacture a gun are a problem.
  - salgernon 11y ago
    More likely, the 3d printed gun fanatics will be evolving themselves out of the gene pool as their printed receivers fail to contain the charge and they all wind up with stumps for hands or worse.
- batbomb 11y ago
  The difference is the learning curve and cost. It was the same thing in 1993, connected computers existed for a long time before that, but they were pricy and there was a steeper learning curve in the 80s to getting online. Even if the learning curve itself didn't drop, it's easier to surmount the learning curve when there is a critical mass. With computers, prices dropped and the learning curve wasn't much of an issue anymore. CNC Mills and lathes still require a much greater skill and up-front cost than a 3D printer needs. With CNC machines, there's usually still an additional necessary step required to turn a model into a tool path, based on your machines. So you still have a learning curve no matter which way you cut it (pun intended). I don't think 3D printing will be a viable way to distributively mass-produce weapons, it's the fact that somebody already has been able to produce functional weapons with 3D printing, and it's comparatively much easier buying a $10K mill and generating tool paths.
  - pen2l 11y ago
    > CNC Mills and lathes still require a much greater skill and up-front cost than a 3D printer needs. I think you're not up to date with recent developments in this space. What you say is no longer true with things like Carbide3d and Carvey. With this new line of "Desktop CNC milling" machines, it's as easy as 3dprinting (if not easier). And the price is comparable (if not cheaper). E.g., compare the Carvey with a Makerbot... or an Ultimaker. It's cheaper than both. If you're willing to be brave and buy a kit, it's even cheaper. Heck, even before this wave you could get a CNC router for very cheap. You could be under the 4 figure range -- with 3d printing it's hard to go below 4 figures and get a decent and reliable machine (though admittedly it very much is possible).
    - jlees 11y ago
      That's interesting, I had always thought the same as the poster you're replying to. It really shows the psychological/brand difference. I'm far more likely to go out and buy a 3D printer. Perhaps it's the word "printer" or it's some imagined preconceptions about the learning curve -- there is a lot of effort going into making 3D printing super accessible right now, and that's the problem pointed out a few comments up this thread. When it's accessible to everybody it's accessible to the people we forgot were also included in "everybody", those with bad intentions -- or simply different ones, such as maximising their personal profit from an apartment rather than living there and being part of the neighbourhood. If we start seeing mainstream magazines talk about desktop CNC milling machines and classes pop up to teach kids how to use them -- and you know, with the Maker movement that's certainly possible and is probably already happening somewhere -- then these technologies become just as "dangerous" as 3D printers.
ta87878 11y ago
You can't make a handgun with a lathe, though. You can get pretty close with computer controlled mills that exist today, a lot closer than with the 3D printers that exist today.
- abakker 11y ago
  And, you can put a bullet in the end of a pipe pretty easily. It doesn't have to be a good gun, after all.
  - vacri 11y ago
    If the quality of the gun was irrelevant to the effectiveness of the weapon, the military would be armed with homemade zipguns.
    - eonw 11y ago
      assassinations and such only require single uses. different tools for different jobs.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  We've been building decent guns for hundreds of years. You don't need computer controlled anything to make a working firearm for murder or self-defense.
evilduck 11y ago
You can sure as hell make a zip gun with a lathe, while you can't make a handgun or a zip gun entirely out of ABS plastic.
jboggan 11y ago
Watch this kid's YouTube channel - you don't need anything as fancy as a 3D printer or even a lathe. Basic welding or even just sawing off pipes gets you a lot. Here's a handgun he made at home: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFzmt3q3msQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFzmt3q3msQ
- cbd1984 11y ago
  They used to be called "zip guns" or "Saturday night specials": Cheap, sometimes home-made firearms with mostly coincidental accuracy (You hit what you were aiming at? Pure coincidence!) and a penchant for exploding in the user's hand. They're to mass-produced firearms what cheap bathtub hooch is to Jim Beam. Wikipedia mentions them along with much more sophisticated designs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improvised_firearm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improvised_firearm
  - x0054 11y ago
    I once watched a Vice documentary about Afghanistan, name escapes me at the moment, and they showed this blind guy making a replica of a Russian Makarov handgun by hand, with very basic tools. We used to manufacture revolvers before 3D printers, the industrial age, modern welding techniques, or pretty much most of the technology we enjoy today. The truth is, you can make a perfectly untraceable, very reliable, simple gun with out 3D printers.
    - cbd1984 11y ago
      > The truth is, you can make a perfectly untraceable, very reliable, simple gun with out 3D printers. ... if you invest a lot in the proper materials, tooling, and skill set.
      - 15155 11y ago
        Takes way, way less time and energy to learn how to use a mill than to try and print a single-shot ABS weapon on most hobby-grade 3D printers. Not to mention, the results you'd see from a mill are much safer, reliable, effective, etc.
bmelton 11y ago
"You can't make a handgun with a lathe, though" Well, you'd need a ball end mill, but you can definitely convert an 80% handgun to a 100% handgun in your garage, and it is 100% legal to do so. http://aresarmor.com/store/Item/rudius1911 http://aresarmor.com/store/Item/rudius1911
TeMPOraL 11y ago
To add to other comments - it's not that we invented guns after developing CNC technology. We've been using firearms for hundreds of years, and this alone should tell you it's entirely doable to manufacture a gun at home, especially with ammunition being already available. And even using old manufacturing methods, you can still apply all the scientific and technological development we've made, because the knowledge is available on the Internet.
15155 11y ago
It's legal to produce a firearm for personal use (in the vast majority of the US). I can personally 3D print one, turn one on a mill (CNC or not), drill-out an 80% AR lower with a drill press, purchase one, be gifted one. A 3D printer is a poor, poor device among most of those options (and mostlikely more expensive). You'll also notice that none of the above manufacturing devices are outlawed or regulated in any form.Why do 3D printers need to be called out?
- seanp2k2 11y ago
  Because lots of people don't understand what 3D printing is and figure it's a device where you do....something...and the thing you're printing pops out, ready to use. Most people who have seen what ~current hobby-grade 3D printers are capable of with ABS or PLA realize how ridiculous it is, but people who see "you can now 3D print a gun!" on TV news might not.
- ta87878 11y ago
  I'm not sure "purchase one" and "be gifted one" count as "personal use". Purchasing, in particular is (I am guessing, I am not a lawyer) commercial activity.
  - 15155 11y ago
    I become the sole, lawful owner of the firearm in both scenarios. The firearm itself serves no commercial purpose. That is what I meant by "personal use." Both activities are protected by the Constitution of the United States of America.