5 ms·

The journalist wrote from the perspective of the "computer science" curriculum being "wrong" or "not relevant" to real world skills those students wanted to lea

by jasode 12y ago

The journalist wrote from the perspective of the "computer science" curriculum being "wrong" or "not relevant" to real world skills those students wanted to learn. However, the other perspective the journalist could have explained was that the students misunderstood what a "computer science" degree actually is. The Computer Science curricula grew out of the Mathematics department. That's why it has classes on topics like automata, algorithms, proofs and theorems. Studying those topics will seem very irrelevant when they notice other Javascript programmers earning $100k to make HTML elements blink on and off. These students were really wanting a "programming" curriculum. Maybe "software engineering" instead of "computer science". A person who wants to repair car engines could try for a degree in "mechanical engineering". There's no doubt the mechanical engineers who work at Ford/Toyota/BMW can replace a spark plug and change the oil but there will many theory classes that won't feel relevant to the daily work of a garage mechanic.

the_af 12y ago
100% agreed! This paragraph is telling: "For example, Temple’s computer science program still requires Calculus 1 and 2. It turns a lot of students off and isn’t really necessary to become a developer, Shi admits. These aren’t problems specific to Temple, he said. They plague most computer science programs." There. Calculus may not be necessary to be a web developer (then again, I suspect even then it is, at least for some cases), but the purpose of a Computer Science education is not "to become a developer". What this person actually wanted was a programming school, and was disappointed when she didn't get exactly that.
- jowiar 12y ago
  You seem to be blaming the student. Did I know as a 17-year-old applying to college what the hell the difference was? No. Did I study CS? Yes. Was it the right decision? Probably not (though I did stay in it). And I had about every advantage in the world of being exposed to programming from when I was 5 or 6. Maybe the craziest part of the US college system, and technical fields in particular, is that most people don't know what's available, and don't know what they're applying for, all the while they go somewhere between the cost of a car and a house into debt.
  - TTPrograms 12y ago
    If one is not prepared to take an active role in identifying their course of study and desired path of education I would suggest that that person should wait to go to college. Not that anyone does.
    - Iftheshoefits 12y ago
      That's an incredibly privileged point of view. It is not frequently the case that students with the apitutude for college have the support they need from family and relevant experts at school to engage in the kind of thoughtful deliberation you suggest.
      - TTPrograms 12y ago
        It certainly doesn't take any more support or resources then attending college does...
        jkestner 12y ago
        It does take more support from family and counselors, because it's swimming against the current. It's easy to jump right into college when everyone's drilled it into your head that you need to go, regardless of your particular personality/goals/stage in life.
        TTPrograms 12y ago
        That effect to not go against the grain should be more extreme in communities where 99.9% of students attend college. Regardless, the issue isn't to pick your path exactly before you go. The point is to be prepared to dedicate some marginal effort to it either at the beginning or before. You really think it's on the schools to tell students what they should learn or what degree they should get? Certainly people have different amounts of support going into it, but we can't just keep pushing the age of personal responsibility further and further out. To absolve underprivileged young adults of these key steps in life is not only harmful to their personal development, but I'd argue personally insulting to their potential as independent adults.
- jkestner 12y ago
  Part of the problem is that the field moves faster than colleges. Kids who might be looking for a path to that career that they're aware of, try their best to find a fit. Computer Science is what all the job postings seem to want.
  - thelambentonion 12y ago
    In my opinion, the problem is that people going into these degree programs (CS included) assuming that they will come out prepared to work in those fields. It seems that many people who are going for a degree in CS are really looking for vocational education in software development [0]. That kind of education can move faster and track changes in the field better than a full-fledged degree program. [0] And it looks like 'code bootcamps' are what's popping up to address this!
    - jkestner 12y ago
      > In my opinion, the problem is that people going into these degree programs (CS included) assuming that they will come out prepared to work in those fields. Ain't that the big dirty secret about most degrees - you learn most of what you need on the job. I don't think you can get real-world exposure soon enough, at least so you know what you're working toward. I wish my school had had a co-op program. I dropped out of one program because I realized during a boring internship that this is what I was being prepared for. Instead of straight to college, I'll encourage my kids to get low-level jobs in their desired industry, out of high school (if not before).
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
- Goladus 12y ago
  * This paragraph is telling:* What it tells me is that the journalist is using rhetoric to persuade you into thinking that the computer science program is badly designed, failing to serve poor students like Becca. This writer's only sources for information about the computer science curriculum appear to be Becca and Dr. Justin Yi, the department chair. Your quote is from Yi, who follows up with this paragraph: That’s because, he said, these types of academic programs were created to cater to an elite few. They weren’t tailored for the masses. As technology has started to touch every part of our lives, university programs haven’t caught up. In other words, the program is designed to teach a smart, highly-motivated person how computers work and how to use them, which definitely includes programming and in no way precludes "becoming a developer".
  - the_af 12y ago
    I think we're in agreement, except for a minor point: > which definitely includes programming and in no way precludes "becoming a developer". You can of course be a computer scientists and a developer (I'd even say that's an excellent choice), but the point is that a CS education isn't a "programming" education. If you approach CS because you want to program (say, you want to be a web developer, you are in a hurry to start your startup, etc.) you're going to be disappointed. This is because the focus of CS isn't programming languages, but theory. If you like studying logic, proofs, math, theoretical models and you also like programming, then CS is your game!
    - Goladus 12y ago
      the point is that a CS education isn't a "programming" education. I really disagree. Computer Science is supposed to be a comprehensive, top-to-bottom foundation for working with computers-- either solving problems with them or advancing knowledge and understanding about them. Programming is a fundamental tool for working with computers. You won't get a worthwhile computer science degree without learning to program (not that bad programs can't exist, or that it's not possible to squeak by with passing grades without learning anything). Computer science doesn't just cover theory and math, but algorithms, data structures, computer architecture, operating systems, networks, and compilers. I would agree that computer science has a more general focus than "programming." I would also agree that a 4-year investment in a bachelor degree might not always be cost-effective or the best use of your time. But those caveats aside, A Computer Science degree should be a fine foundation for software development.
jowiar 12y ago
This isn't the students' fault, though. In industry, we're asking for a "Computer Science" major, and often times our hiring processes are very CS heavy, when for most of us it only covers a portion of the skills we need, and others we don't. It's sort of like if accounting firms were recruiting math majors, and hiring based on their theorem-proving skills.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
0359B02149AB 12y ago
It's funny, I'm a senior software developer at Temple University, and I started working here just to be able to take classes at the college (I have my MSc in Comp Sci from Stevens Institute of Technology). I don't understand what people want from computer science - no thinking? Computer science is awesome because it's hard and you can't just solve problems by beating them up with brute force combinations of things you can find on stackoverflow. Computer science is all thinking. I'm also female, and this is one of the places I've been where I don't feel like an outsider all the time. I don't know what it's like around the students and professors as a general population. But plenty of my coworkers are students, and some are professors and some have gone off to be full time professors, so... just throwing in a perspective from the other side.
Jun8 12y ago
True, as stated by the quip "Computer science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes", which is mis-attributed to Dijsktra (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Computer_science http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Computer_science) but still very much true I think. The blame is not all on the student, though. It's on CS departments that present a vague picture of what they are doing. Some of these focus on mathematical aspects, some on AI, etc.
ohmyiv 12y ago
It seems to me that either her academic advisor wasn't knowledgable enough or the student didn't clearly communicate what she wanted from a program of study. She probably would have been happier had she went into Information Systems and Technology. There is a difference in goals between Computer Science and Information Systems and those differences are listed on Temple's CSIT website. From Temple: "Computer Science": Emphasis is on the more conceptual aspects of computing, especially as related to program design, and the study of computing systems, including hardware architecture and computer resource management. "IS&T": Emphasis is on the design, analysis, development and implementation of systems and the underlying technologies that support this development. http://www.temple.edu/cis/undergraduate/undergradcs/documents/csistcomparebrochure2014.pdf http://www.temple.edu/cis/undergraduate/undergradcs/document... A little more research by both the advisor and the student may have avoided a horribly titled article.
peckrob 12y ago
> Maybe "software engineering" instead of "computer science". This is not really any better, just different types of required courses. At my alma mater, Auburn, the Software Engineering major is actually more rigorous than the Computer Science major. You have to take Cal 1-3, Engineering Physics 1 and 2, Linear Algebra, Differential Equations and Engineering Mechanics [0]. Basically, a lot of the engineering foundations that are shared with other, more physical engineering disciplines. Computer Science, by comparison, only requires Cal 1 and 2 and Linear Algebra. You can also take an easier core science requirement (like Geology) and, generally, have more freedom to choose electives. [1] I've thought for awhile now that there needs to be a new major that crosses disciplines between engineering and liberal arts. You need to have some of the math and programming foundations to be a good developer that can move beyond simple entry-level type foundations. But a lot of what I struggle with now is "soft skills": design, user experience, copy writing, documentation, etc. Almost like a blending of computer science and fine arts. I would love to see someone address this need, because in the modern world where real everyday people use our software (not just scientists and engineers), the latter is just as important as the former. [0] http://bulletin.auburn.edu/undergraduate/samuelginncollegeofengineering/departmentofcomputerscienceandsoftwareengineering/softwareengineering_major/ http://bulletin.auburn.edu/undergraduate/samuelginncollegeof... [1] http://bulletin.auburn.edu/undergraduate/samuelginncollegeofengineering/departmentofcomputerscienceandsoftwareengineering/computerscience_major/ http://bulletin.auburn.edu/undergraduate/samuelginncollegeof...

by jasode 12y ago

the_af 12y ago

100% agreed! This paragraph is telling: "For example, Temple’s computer science program still requires Calculus 1 and 2. It turns a lot of students off and isn’t really necessary to become a developer, Shi admits. These aren’t problems specific to Temple, he said. They plague most computer science programs." There. Calculus may not be necessary to be a web developer (then again, I suspect even then it is, at least for some cases), but the purpose of a Computer Science education is not "to become a developer". What this person actually wanted was a programming school, and was disappointed when she didn't get exactly that.

jowiar 12y ago
You seem to be blaming the student. Did I know as a 17-year-old applying to college what the hell the difference was? No. Did I study CS? Yes. Was it the right decision? Probably not (though I did stay in it). And I had about every advantage in the world of being exposed to programming from when I was 5 or 6. Maybe the craziest part of the US college system, and technical fields in particular, is that most people don't know what's available, and don't know what they're applying for, all the while they go somewhere between the cost of a car and a house into debt.
- TTPrograms 12y ago
  If one is not prepared to take an active role in identifying their course of study and desired path of education I would suggest that that person should wait to go to college. Not that anyone does.
  - Iftheshoefits 12y ago
    That's an incredibly privileged point of view. It is not frequently the case that students with the apitutude for college have the support they need from family and relevant experts at school to engage in the kind of thoughtful deliberation you suggest.
    - TTPrograms 12y ago
      It certainly doesn't take any more support or resources then attending college does...
      - jkestner 12y ago
        It does take more support from family and counselors, because it's swimming against the current. It's easy to jump right into college when everyone's drilled it into your head that you need to go, regardless of your particular personality/goals/stage in life.
        TTPrograms 12y ago
        That effect to not go against the grain should be more extreme in communities where 99.9% of students attend college. Regardless, the issue isn't to pick your path exactly before you go. The point is to be prepared to dedicate some marginal effort to it either at the beginning or before. You really think it's on the schools to tell students what they should learn or what degree they should get? Certainly people have different amounts of support going into it, but we can't just keep pushing the age of personal responsibility further and further out. To absolve underprivileged young adults of these key steps in life is not only harmful to their personal development, but I'd argue personally insulting to their potential as independent adults.
jkestner 12y ago
Part of the problem is that the field moves faster than colleges. Kids who might be looking for a path to that career that they're aware of, try their best to find a fit. Computer Science is what all the job postings seem to want.
- thelambentonion 12y ago
  In my opinion, the problem is that people going into these degree programs (CS included) assuming that they will come out prepared to work in those fields. It seems that many people who are going for a degree in CS are really looking for vocational education in software development [0]. That kind of education can move faster and track changes in the field better than a full-fledged degree program. [0] And it looks like 'code bootcamps' are what's popping up to address this!
  - jkestner 12y ago
    > In my opinion, the problem is that people going into these degree programs (CS included) assuming that they will come out prepared to work in those fields. Ain't that the big dirty secret about most degrees - you learn most of what you need on the job. I don't think you can get real-world exposure soon enough, at least so you know what you're working toward. I wish my school had had a co-op program. I dropped out of one program because I realized during a boring internship that this is what I was being prepared for. Instead of straight to college, I'll encourage my kids to get low-level jobs in their desired industry, out of high school (if not before).
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
Goladus 12y ago
* This paragraph is telling:* What it tells me is that the journalist is using rhetoric to persuade you into thinking that the computer science program is badly designed, failing to serve poor students like Becca. This writer's only sources for information about the computer science curriculum appear to be Becca and Dr. Justin Yi, the department chair. Your quote is from Yi, who follows up with this paragraph: That’s because, he said, these types of academic programs were created to cater to an elite few. They weren’t tailored for the masses. As technology has started to touch every part of our lives, university programs haven’t caught up. In other words, the program is designed to teach a smart, highly-motivated person how computers work and how to use them, which definitely includes programming and in no way precludes "becoming a developer".
- the_af 12y ago
  I think we're in agreement, except for a minor point: > which definitely includes programming and in no way precludes "becoming a developer". You can of course be a computer scientists and a developer (I'd even say that's an excellent choice), but the point is that a CS education isn't a "programming" education. If you approach CS because you want to program (say, you want to be a web developer, you are in a hurry to start your startup, etc.) you're going to be disappointed. This is because the focus of CS isn't programming languages, but theory. If you like studying logic, proofs, math, theoretical models and you also like programming, then CS is your game!
  - Goladus 12y ago
    the point is that a CS education isn't a "programming" education. I really disagree. Computer Science is supposed to be a comprehensive, top-to-bottom foundation for working with computers-- either solving problems with them or advancing knowledge and understanding about them. Programming is a fundamental tool for working with computers. You won't get a worthwhile computer science degree without learning to program (not that bad programs can't exist, or that it's not possible to squeak by with passing grades without learning anything). Computer science doesn't just cover theory and math, but algorithms, data structures, computer architecture, operating systems, networks, and compilers. I would agree that computer science has a more general focus than "programming." I would also agree that a 4-year investment in a bachelor degree might not always be cost-effective or the best use of your time. But those caveats aside, A Computer Science degree should be a fine foundation for software development.

jowiar 12y ago

This isn't the students' fault, though. In industry, we're asking for a "Computer Science" major, and often times our hiring processes are very CS heavy, when for most of us it only covers a portion of the skills we need, and others we don't. It's sort of like if accounting firms were recruiting math majors, and hiring based on their theorem-proving skills.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

0359B02149AB 12y ago

It's funny, I'm a senior software developer at Temple University, and I started working here just to be able to take classes at the college (I have my MSc in Comp Sci from Stevens Institute of Technology). I don't understand what people want from computer science - no thinking? Computer science is awesome because it's hard and you can't just solve problems by beating them up with brute force combinations of things you can find on stackoverflow. Computer science is all thinking. I'm also female, and this is one of the places I've been where I don't feel like an outsider all the time. I don't know what it's like around the students and professors as a general population. But plenty of my coworkers are students, and some are professors and some have gone off to be full time professors, so... just throwing in a perspective from the other side.

Jun8 12y ago

True, as stated by the quip "Computer science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes", which is mis-attributed to Dijsktra (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Computer_science http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Computer_science) but still very much true I think. The blame is not all on the student, though. It's on CS departments that present a vague picture of what they are doing. Some of these focus on mathematical aspects, some on AI, etc.

ohmyiv 12y ago

It seems to me that either her academic advisor wasn't knowledgable enough or the student didn't clearly communicate what she wanted from a program of study. She probably would have been happier had she went into Information Systems and Technology. There is a difference in goals between Computer Science and Information Systems and those differences are listed on Temple's CSIT website. From Temple: "Computer Science": Emphasis is on the more conceptual aspects of computing, especially as related to program design, and the study of computing systems, including hardware architecture and computer resource management. "IS&T": Emphasis is on the design, analysis, development and implementation of systems and the underlying technologies that support this development. http://www.temple.edu/cis/undergraduate/undergradcs/documents/csistcomparebrochure2014.pdf http://www.temple.edu/cis/undergraduate/undergradcs/document... A little more research by both the advisor and the student may have avoided a horribly titled article.

peckrob 12y ago

> Maybe "software engineering" instead of "computer science". This is not really any better, just different types of required courses. At my alma mater, Auburn, the Software Engineering major is actually more rigorous than the Computer Science major. You have to take Cal 1-3, Engineering Physics 1 and 2, Linear Algebra, Differential Equations and Engineering Mechanics [0]. Basically, a lot of the engineering foundations that are shared with other, more physical engineering disciplines. Computer Science, by comparison, only requires Cal 1 and 2 and Linear Algebra. You can also take an easier core science requirement (like Geology) and, generally, have more freedom to choose electives. [1] I've thought for awhile now that there needs to be a new major that crosses disciplines between engineering and liberal arts. You need to have some of the math and programming foundations to be a good developer that can move beyond simple entry-level type foundations. But a lot of what I struggle with now is "soft skills": design, user experience, copy writing, documentation, etc. Almost like a blending of computer science and fine arts. I would love to see someone address this need, because in the modern world where real everyday people use our software (not just scientists and engineers), the latter is just as important as the former. [0] http://bulletin.auburn.edu/undergraduate/samuelginncollegeofengineering/departmentofcomputerscienceandsoftwareengineering/softwareengineering_major/ http://bulletin.auburn.edu/undergraduate/samuelginncollegeof... [1] http://bulletin.auburn.edu/undergraduate/samuelginncollegeofengineering/departmentofcomputerscienceandsoftwareengineering/computerscience_major/ http://bulletin.auburn.edu/undergraduate/samuelginncollegeof...