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It's also dishonest to put such words in my mouth, when they were never said ;) The disconnect, IMO, stems from the fact that women are fighting, and men are n

by bakhy 11y ago

It's also dishonest to put such words in my mouth, when they were never said ;) The disconnect, IMO, stems from the fact that women are fighting, and men are not. Or, perhaps better said, men are just beginning to frame an opposition. Women have stood up, organized, and brought attention to their problems (which were, without any doubt, seriously greater than men's), and achieved many victories. Standard democratic process. Now it's high time for men to do the same. However, if male action gets reduced to just attacking feminism and blaming feminism for everything, that sucks. It is one system, patriarchy, that causes all these problems. If some women and feminists are blind to the problems of men, is that really a surprise? Fully understanding someone else, someone whose shoes you haven't walked in, is incredibly hard. What we need is discussion, finding understanding, and fighting the common source of all these problems - patriarchy. And nobody can stand for men, but men themselves.

ep103 11y ago
> If some women and feminists are blind to the problems of men, is that really a surprise? Yes, honestly, though perhaps it shouldn't. The point of feminism was to bring equality to the sexes. In places where it has been successful, to see it continue to push forward as a way of achieving victories for women causes spite and backlash. I have low hopes for a real men's version of feminism to form, for exactly the reasons laid out in this article. The main problem (as this article points out) is that any man who admits to difficulties or problems is seen as not-a-man. The current state of MRA might be sad, but they are generally despised first and foremost because men who complain are not respectable men. Perhaps its just a pipe dream, but one would hope that feminists would remember that the original goal was equality for both sexes, and would help us out where needed.
- bakhy 11y ago
  I agree with a lot of what you say. But waiting for someone else to fight your fight never worked for anybody. It's just the way it is, people have a hard time putting themselves in others' shoes, and everyone naturally tends to place greater emphasis on their own problems. And then there's the fact that problems women face still exist. But for me, the problem with MRAs is not that they are "unmanly". They remind me of something like a slave, who sees another former slave now walking free, and instead of now demanding his own freedom, he fights for the other guy to become a slave again... You are probably right, MRAs probably will be seen as pussies and belittled, but their response, IMO, should be to embrace it. Yes, I am a pussy. If that's what an intelligent, reflective man is, then let it be - I am a pussy. Kind of like the relationship between feminists and the word "bitch". And that is for some men one hard pill to swallow. Now that feminism has won a lot of victories, men are in a position that they are still burdened by patriarchic expectations, but no longer enjoy the corresponding privileges. The right answer is to fight the expectations, IMO.
  - ep103 11y ago
    > but their response, IMO, should be to embrace it I simply do not see this happening. Before people ever do this, they will attempt to accomplish their goals by easier, more acceptable, less self-socially destroying means, like wrapping their complaints in traditional/religious roles or (likely reactionary) ideology. But I don't want to detract from this any longer. The point I was trying to make was far more succinctly put by marrs in anther reply to you.
hoopd 11y ago
What sucks is if a men's movement has to accept the same B.S. underpinnings as feminism because feminists can't handle others disagreeing with them. The whole patriarchy critique is a biased philosophical position of a particular social movement. If you guys like it, fine, but you don't get to force it upon others.
- bakhy 11y ago
  Yeah, exactly, forcing things upon others. Or, as people usually call this, a conversation :D You are being a hypocrite right now. You may disagree, but you may not accuse me of forcing anything just because I said something you disagree with.
  - hoopd 11y ago
    You could put a minimal amount of effort into charitable readings of the comments of others. Feminism has gone so far as to brand the men's rights movement a hate group, they've gone out of their way to characterize men's rights books as rape-apologizing hate speech, and in some cases[0][1] have actively shut down talks given from what is basically the MRA viewpoint. This is clearly coercion so I feel justified in saying feminism is attempting to "force" the men's rights movement to develop in a certain way. Am I saying you're personally trying to force me to do anything right now? That wasn't my intention. As for your view that we should all get together and blame the patriarchy, allow me to rephrase myself for clarity: thanks, but no thanks. [0] - http://metronews.ca/news/ottawa/1000093/protesters-shut-down-u-of-o-professors-mens-rights-talk/ http://metronews.ca/news/ottawa/1000093/protesters-shut-down... [1] - http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/robyn-urback-move-over-abortion-mens-issues-are-the-new-taboo-topics-on-campus http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/robyn-urback-move-...
    - bakhy 11y ago
      That would have been one charitable reading :D Of course I understood you as if you were implying that I am forcing something. Thank you for the clarification! I cannot really speak for others, I represent no one but myself. I can only guess that, to some extent, such reaction from some feminists is simply defence. The MRA narrative is too focused on feminism, and has too much relativizing, "who's the greater victim" talk, which is stupid. But I also definitely agree that some of the reaction is just a lack of will to hear what the other side has to say, which sucks. BTW, what do you then blame?

by bakhy 11y ago

ep103 11y ago

> If some women and feminists are blind to the problems of men, is that really a surprise? Yes, honestly, though perhaps it shouldn't. The point of feminism was to bring equality to the sexes. In places where it has been successful, to see it continue to push forward as a way of achieving victories for women causes spite and backlash. I have low hopes for a real men's version of feminism to form, for exactly the reasons laid out in this article. The main problem (as this article points out) is that any man who admits to difficulties or problems is seen as not-a-man. The current state of MRA might be sad, but they are generally despised first and foremost because men who complain are not respectable men. Perhaps its just a pipe dream, but one would hope that feminists would remember that the original goal was equality for both sexes, and would help us out where needed.

bakhy 11y ago
I agree with a lot of what you say. But waiting for someone else to fight your fight never worked for anybody. It's just the way it is, people have a hard time putting themselves in others' shoes, and everyone naturally tends to place greater emphasis on their own problems. And then there's the fact that problems women face still exist. But for me, the problem with MRAs is not that they are "unmanly". They remind me of something like a slave, who sees another former slave now walking free, and instead of now demanding his own freedom, he fights for the other guy to become a slave again... You are probably right, MRAs probably will be seen as pussies and belittled, but their response, IMO, should be to embrace it. Yes, I am a pussy. If that's what an intelligent, reflective man is, then let it be - I am a pussy. Kind of like the relationship between feminists and the word "bitch". And that is for some men one hard pill to swallow. Now that feminism has won a lot of victories, men are in a position that they are still burdened by patriarchic expectations, but no longer enjoy the corresponding privileges. The right answer is to fight the expectations, IMO.
- ep103 11y ago
  > but their response, IMO, should be to embrace it I simply do not see this happening. Before people ever do this, they will attempt to accomplish their goals by easier, more acceptable, less self-socially destroying means, like wrapping their complaints in traditional/religious roles or (likely reactionary) ideology. But I don't want to detract from this any longer. The point I was trying to make was far more succinctly put by marrs in anther reply to you.

hoopd 11y ago

What sucks is if a men's movement has to accept the same B.S. underpinnings as feminism because feminists can't handle others disagreeing with them. The whole patriarchy critique is a biased philosophical position of a particular social movement. If you guys like it, fine, but you don't get to force it upon others.

bakhy 11y ago
Yeah, exactly, forcing things upon others. Or, as people usually call this, a conversation :D You are being a hypocrite right now. You may disagree, but you may not accuse me of forcing anything just because I said something you disagree with.
- hoopd 11y ago
  You could put a minimal amount of effort into charitable readings of the comments of others. Feminism has gone so far as to brand the men's rights movement a hate group, they've gone out of their way to characterize men's rights books as rape-apologizing hate speech, and in some cases[0][1] have actively shut down talks given from what is basically the MRA viewpoint. This is clearly coercion so I feel justified in saying feminism is attempting to "force" the men's rights movement to develop in a certain way. Am I saying you're personally trying to force me to do anything right now? That wasn't my intention. As for your view that we should all get together and blame the patriarchy, allow me to rephrase myself for clarity: thanks, but no thanks. [0] - http://metronews.ca/news/ottawa/1000093/protesters-shut-down-u-of-o-professors-mens-rights-talk/ http://metronews.ca/news/ottawa/1000093/protesters-shut-down... [1] - http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/robyn-urback-move-over-abortion-mens-issues-are-the-new-taboo-topics-on-campus http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/robyn-urback-move-...
  - bakhy 11y ago
    That would have been one charitable reading :D Of course I understood you as if you were implying that I am forcing something. Thank you for the clarification! I cannot really speak for others, I represent no one but myself. I can only guess that, to some extent, such reaction from some feminists is simply defence. The MRA narrative is too focused on feminism, and has too much relativizing, "who's the greater victim" talk, which is stupid. But I also definitely agree that some of the reaction is just a lack of will to hear what the other side has to say, which sucks. BTW, what do you then blame?