5 ms·

> You agree to pay taxes by continuing to live here. If we were free to move to a country where we agreed with the laws you might be right. That's not reality

> You agree to pay taxes by continuing to live here. If we were free to move to a country where we agreed with the laws you might be right. That's not reality though. We are not (currently) free to choose how we pay taxes in any country and our freedom to move from one country to another is restricted. So, sorry, I never agreed to pay these taxes, I have little say in how they're used, and I have no alternatives except to go to prison. That's not freedom. That's simply coercion and theft.

Frondo 11y ago
You are free to move to another country. The fact that no other country meets your very specific requirements doesn't mean that you are not obligated to pay for living in this one. If no automobile maker will sell you the exact car you want, that does not grant you the right to take a car without paying for it. So, yes, you do agree to pay these taxes by continuing to live here.
- itistoday2 11y ago
  > You are free to move to another country. Please explain how I can do that. I would actually like to move to Switzerland, could you explain how I can freely do that as everything I've researched indicates it's neither free nor possible in any reasonable amount of time. If not Switzerland I'll settle for some other country where I can live freely and be safe from coercion. > If no automobile maker will sell you the exact car you want... Nobody is forcing me to buy the car with the threat of prison if I don't, and I do not need a car to survive. I do need to live someplace however.
  - Frondo 11y ago
    You can leave the U.S. whenever you want. The U.S. isn't restricting your ability to leave. If the country of your choice doesn't permit you to emigrate, that doesn't mean that you're suddenly free from your obligations to whatever country will host you. Wouldn't that be convenient? "Sir, I don't have to pay taxes. I want to move to Switzerland, but they're full right now, so I can't." (And the "threat of prison" is some of the dumbest hyperbole out of the antitax crowd--for nearly all cases, they'll simply garnish your wages, or something equally non-freedom-constraining.)
    - itistoday2 11y ago
      It doesn't help if all other countries both severely restrict entry and/or force a tax upon you. I'd just end up in the same exact situation. > And the "threat of prison" is some of the dumbest hyperbole... It's not hyperbole. If you willfully fail to file that's grounds for imprisonment: http://www.businessinsider.com/terrible-things-that-could-happen-if-you-dont-do-your-taxes-2014-4 http://www.businessinsider.com/terrible-things-that-could-ha... You're probably thinking of cases when people "forget" or make "mistakes" in their filing. > ...out of the antitax crowd I mentioned this already, I am not anti-tax. Please cut it with the labeling. It's late. We're going in circles. Have a good night, I won't be replying to whatever you post next.
      - Frondo 11y ago
        Fine, you're not antitax. You're just engaging in a lengthy thread debate using their common arguments. I stand by my statement w.r.t. the antitax crowd. And again, whether all other countries do not meet your preference or requirement does not free you from your obligations to this one, as long as you live here. Whether other countries don't allow you in, don't allow you to stay, don't govern the way you like, or whatever other complaint you may have about other countries, that does not change your present-day relationship to this one: that you live here, and as such are obligated to pay taxes as long as you do. And of course there are, right now, many other countries that you could emigrate to if you liked. Even if your A-list countries aren't open, you still have lots of options.
        jqgatsby 11y ago
        My hat is off to Frondo and notahacker. I've occasionally (regrettably, foolishly) tried to argue it out with the "taxation is theft" folks, and this is the first time I've seen one of them actually give up from exhaustion. I'm sure he'll recharge and come back tomorrow once he looks up the next argument in his playbook, but even temporary victories must be savored. Sorry, itistoday2, I'm sure you're a nice person in person, but the argument you're making is obnoxious. Have you noticed how people get really annoyed when you make it? It's not because it's a good argument!
  - notahacker 11y ago
    If you live someplace and don't pay rent at the end of the month, the landlord will bill you, even if you're desperately searching for somewhere else. For some reason, most anti-taxers consider this not to be "coercion" but to be an efficient way of allocating resources and will defend to the death the landlord's right to demand that I compensate him for occupying a particular location he has a prior claim over. The rationale behind treating private territorial claims on my wealth more favourably than public ones continues to elude me...
    - itistoday2 11y ago
      One involves non-coercive mutual consent (a signed agreement), the other doesn't.
      - Frondo 11y ago
        You do give consent by continuing to live here past the age of maturity. When you're a child, and your parents have custody of you, they make that choice for you--you're a citizen here, here's where you'll live, be politically involved, and pay taxes. When you're old enough to make that choice for yourself, that's when you can stay--with all that entails--or go.
        dalke 11y ago
        There are several reasons why this argument does not work. The most important is that US law says that US citizens must pay taxes, even those who live in other countries. The only way to avoid it is to give up US citizenship. That can only be done outside of the US, and by an adult. It's therefore impossible for any US citizen to legally avoid paying tax at least once, assuming sufficient income to have to pay tax in the first place. Do note that this law also applies to foreign born US citizens, who are citizens by blood but who have never even visited the US. For obvious reasons, many of these citizens either don't know about their obligations under US law, or deliberately ignore it.
        Frondo 11y ago
digler990 11y ago
a quick google search shows you several countries that have no income tax. So sorry, you never researched your own argument.
- itistoday2 11y ago
  http://nomadcapitalist.com/2013/11/24/top-5-livable-countries-income-tax/ http://nomadcapitalist.com/2013/11/24/top-5-livable-countrie... Of the most "livable" countries: - United Arab Emirates: don't want to live in the middle east, no thanks. I disagree with many of the laws there and have no close family or friends anywhere nearby. - Bahamas: gotta buy land there or pay an annual fee. This is probably the most reasonable of all options, but my work precludes me from living there. - Bermuda: One of the world's most expensive places to live. Possible if I could afford it (can't at the moment). - Andorra: would be awesome. Not sure what the situation is with living there as a non-citizen (it takes 20 years to become one). Since one has to be a citizen of some country one wouldn't be able to renounce their US citizenship for 20 years (at least) and therefore would still have to pay income taxes to the United States. - Monaco: "Getting a residence permit practically requires millionaire status." I think ebrenes framed the situation well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9540888 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9540888 Copied here: ~~~~ While you can theoretically leave the U.S. whenever you want, you cannot stop paying taxes whenever you want. You have to renounce citizenship, pay a fine for renouncing said citizenship to avoid paying taxes and possibly be audited. And you might argue that's fine, because they should be able to collect back taxes but you'll generally have to pay taxes for the next 10 years. ~~~~ 10 years, 20 years, whatever. None of this changes the fact that what is being done in the United States is theft, plain and simple. The government never came to me and asked if I agreed to any of these income taxes, they just say pay up or we'll ruin your life. No negotiation, no agreed upon exchange for goods or services, just extortion.
  - Frondo 11y ago
    It is not theft. You listed several countries you could move to. The fact that you don't want to move to any of them, for whatever reason, does not turn US taxation into "theft". And again, you agree to pay them by continuing to live here. Just like, when you sit down at a restaurant and order a meal, you're agreeing to pay for it without negotiation, without a specific contract outlining specifications for the food, etc. Don't like it? Go to another restaurant.

Frondo 11y ago

You are free to move to another country. The fact that no other country meets your very specific requirements doesn't mean that you are not obligated to pay for living in this one. If no automobile maker will sell you the exact car you want, that does not grant you the right to take a car without paying for it. So, yes, you do agree to pay these taxes by continuing to live here.

itistoday2 11y ago
> You are free to move to another country. Please explain how I can do that. I would actually like to move to Switzerland, could you explain how I can freely do that as everything I've researched indicates it's neither free nor possible in any reasonable amount of time. If not Switzerland I'll settle for some other country where I can live freely and be safe from coercion. > If no automobile maker will sell you the exact car you want... Nobody is forcing me to buy the car with the threat of prison if I don't, and I do not need a car to survive. I do need to live someplace however.
- Frondo 11y ago
  You can leave the U.S. whenever you want. The U.S. isn't restricting your ability to leave. If the country of your choice doesn't permit you to emigrate, that doesn't mean that you're suddenly free from your obligations to whatever country will host you. Wouldn't that be convenient? "Sir, I don't have to pay taxes. I want to move to Switzerland, but they're full right now, so I can't." (And the "threat of prison" is some of the dumbest hyperbole out of the antitax crowd--for nearly all cases, they'll simply garnish your wages, or something equally non-freedom-constraining.)
  - itistoday2 11y ago
    It doesn't help if all other countries both severely restrict entry and/or force a tax upon you. I'd just end up in the same exact situation. > And the "threat of prison" is some of the dumbest hyperbole... It's not hyperbole. If you willfully fail to file that's grounds for imprisonment: http://www.businessinsider.com/terrible-things-that-could-happen-if-you-dont-do-your-taxes-2014-4 http://www.businessinsider.com/terrible-things-that-could-ha... You're probably thinking of cases when people "forget" or make "mistakes" in their filing. > ...out of the antitax crowd I mentioned this already, I am not anti-tax. Please cut it with the labeling. It's late. We're going in circles. Have a good night, I won't be replying to whatever you post next.
    - Frondo 11y ago
      Fine, you're not antitax. You're just engaging in a lengthy thread debate using their common arguments. I stand by my statement w.r.t. the antitax crowd. And again, whether all other countries do not meet your preference or requirement does not free you from your obligations to this one, as long as you live here. Whether other countries don't allow you in, don't allow you to stay, don't govern the way you like, or whatever other complaint you may have about other countries, that does not change your present-day relationship to this one: that you live here, and as such are obligated to pay taxes as long as you do. And of course there are, right now, many other countries that you could emigrate to if you liked. Even if your A-list countries aren't open, you still have lots of options.
      - jqgatsby 11y ago
        My hat is off to Frondo and notahacker. I've occasionally (regrettably, foolishly) tried to argue it out with the "taxation is theft" folks, and this is the first time I've seen one of them actually give up from exhaustion. I'm sure he'll recharge and come back tomorrow once he looks up the next argument in his playbook, but even temporary victories must be savored. Sorry, itistoday2, I'm sure you're a nice person in person, but the argument you're making is obnoxious. Have you noticed how people get really annoyed when you make it? It's not because it's a good argument!
- notahacker 11y ago
  If you live someplace and don't pay rent at the end of the month, the landlord will bill you, even if you're desperately searching for somewhere else. For some reason, most anti-taxers consider this not to be "coercion" but to be an efficient way of allocating resources and will defend to the death the landlord's right to demand that I compensate him for occupying a particular location he has a prior claim over. The rationale behind treating private territorial claims on my wealth more favourably than public ones continues to elude me...
  - itistoday2 11y ago
    One involves non-coercive mutual consent (a signed agreement), the other doesn't.
    - Frondo 11y ago
      You do give consent by continuing to live here past the age of maturity. When you're a child, and your parents have custody of you, they make that choice for you--you're a citizen here, here's where you'll live, be politically involved, and pay taxes. When you're old enough to make that choice for yourself, that's when you can stay--with all that entails--or go.
      - dalke 11y ago
        There are several reasons why this argument does not work. The most important is that US law says that US citizens must pay taxes, even those who live in other countries. The only way to avoid it is to give up US citizenship. That can only be done outside of the US, and by an adult. It's therefore impossible for any US citizen to legally avoid paying tax at least once, assuming sufficient income to have to pay tax in the first place. Do note that this law also applies to foreign born US citizens, who are citizens by blood but who have never even visited the US. For obvious reasons, many of these citizens either don't know about their obligations under US law, or deliberately ignore it.
        Frondo 11y ago

digler990 11y ago

a quick google search shows you several countries that have no income tax. So sorry, you never researched your own argument.

itistoday2 11y ago
http://nomadcapitalist.com/2013/11/24/top-5-livable-countries-income-tax/ http://nomadcapitalist.com/2013/11/24/top-5-livable-countrie... Of the most "livable" countries: - United Arab Emirates: don't want to live in the middle east, no thanks. I disagree with many of the laws there and have no close family or friends anywhere nearby. - Bahamas: gotta buy land there or pay an annual fee. This is probably the most reasonable of all options, but my work precludes me from living there. - Bermuda: One of the world's most expensive places to live. Possible if I could afford it (can't at the moment). - Andorra: would be awesome. Not sure what the situation is with living there as a non-citizen (it takes 20 years to become one). Since one has to be a citizen of some country one wouldn't be able to renounce their US citizenship for 20 years (at least) and therefore would still have to pay income taxes to the United States. - Monaco: "Getting a residence permit practically requires millionaire status." I think ebrenes framed the situation well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9540888 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9540888 Copied here: ~~~~ While you can theoretically leave the U.S. whenever you want, you cannot stop paying taxes whenever you want. You have to renounce citizenship, pay a fine for renouncing said citizenship to avoid paying taxes and possibly be audited. And you might argue that's fine, because they should be able to collect back taxes but you'll generally have to pay taxes for the next 10 years. ~~~~ 10 years, 20 years, whatever. None of this changes the fact that what is being done in the United States is theft, plain and simple. The government never came to me and asked if I agreed to any of these income taxes, they just say pay up or we'll ruin your life. No negotiation, no agreed upon exchange for goods or services, just extortion.
- Frondo 11y ago
  It is not theft. You listed several countries you could move to. The fact that you don't want to move to any of them, for whatever reason, does not turn US taxation into "theft". And again, you agree to pay them by continuing to live here. Just like, when you sit down at a restaurant and order a meal, you're agreeing to pay for it without negotiation, without a specific contract outlining specifications for the food, etc. Don't like it? Go to another restaurant.