4 ms·

Stereotypes and ad hominem don't help the conversation. I am not "anti-tax". I think taxation is a good idea as it helps a community re-invest in itself. I am

Stereotypes and ad hominem don't help the conversation. I am not "anti-tax". I think taxation is a good idea as it helps a community re-invest in itself. I am anti-theft. Saying today's taxation is not theft won't change the reality that it is. Nor will downvoting this post change that reality. In fact, barring a change in the definition of the word, there is not a single action in this universe that can change the reality that taking something that belongs to someone else without their permission is theft.

Frondo 11y ago
You agree to pay taxes by continuing to live here. Taxes aren't theft any more than the check at the end of a restaurant meal is theft. In both cases, you agree to pay something in exchange for something (a meal, a functioning government, etc).
- itistoday2 11y ago
  > You agree to pay taxes by continuing to live here. If we were free to move to a country where we agreed with the laws you might be right. That's not reality though. We are not (currently) free to choose how we pay taxes in any country and our freedom to move from one country to another is restricted. So, sorry, I never agreed to pay these taxes, I have little say in how they're used, and I have no alternatives except to go to prison. That's not freedom. That's simply coercion and theft.
  - Frondo 11y ago
    You are free to move to another country. The fact that no other country meets your very specific requirements doesn't mean that you are not obligated to pay for living in this one. If no automobile maker will sell you the exact car you want, that does not grant you the right to take a car without paying for it. So, yes, you do agree to pay these taxes by continuing to live here.
    - itistoday2 11y ago
      > You are free to move to another country. Please explain how I can do that. I would actually like to move to Switzerland, could you explain how I can freely do that as everything I've researched indicates it's neither free nor possible in any reasonable amount of time. If not Switzerland I'll settle for some other country where I can live freely and be safe from coercion. > If no automobile maker will sell you the exact car you want... Nobody is forcing me to buy the car with the threat of prison if I don't, and I do not need a car to survive. I do need to live someplace however.
      - Frondo 11y ago
        You can leave the U.S. whenever you want. The U.S. isn't restricting your ability to leave. If the country of your choice doesn't permit you to emigrate, that doesn't mean that you're suddenly free from your obligations to whatever country will host you. Wouldn't that be convenient? "Sir, I don't have to pay taxes. I want to move to Switzerland, but they're full right now, so I can't." (And the "threat of prison" is some of the dumbest hyperbole out of the antitax crowd--for nearly all cases, they'll simply garnish your wages, or something equally non-freedom-constraining.)
        itistoday2 11y ago
        It doesn't help if all other countries both severely restrict entry and/or force a tax upon you. I'd just end up in the same exact situation. > And the "threat of prison" is some of the dumbest hyperbole... It's not hyperbole. If you willfully fail to file that's grounds for imprisonment: http://www.businessinsider.com/terrible-things-that-could-happen-if-you-dont-do-your-taxes-2014-4 http://www.businessinsider.com/terrible-things-that-could-ha... You're probably thinking of cases when people "forget" or make "mistakes" in their filing. > ...out of the antitax crowd I mentioned this already, I am not anti-tax. Please cut it with the labeling. It's late. We're going in circles. Have a good night, I won't be replying to whatever you post next.
        Frondo 11y ago
  - digler990 11y ago
    a quick google search shows you several countries that have no income tax. So sorry, you never researched your own argument.
    - itistoday2 11y ago
      http://nomadcapitalist.com/2013/11/24/top-5-livable-countries-income-tax/ http://nomadcapitalist.com/2013/11/24/top-5-livable-countrie... Of the most "livable" countries: - United Arab Emirates: don't want to live in the middle east, no thanks. I disagree with many of the laws there and have no close family or friends anywhere nearby. - Bahamas: gotta buy land there or pay an annual fee. This is probably the most reasonable of all options, but my work precludes me from living there. - Bermuda: One of the world's most expensive places to live. Possible if I could afford it (can't at the moment). - Andorra: would be awesome. Not sure what the situation is with living there as a non-citizen (it takes 20 years to become one). Since one has to be a citizen of some country one wouldn't be able to renounce their US citizenship for 20 years (at least) and therefore would still have to pay income taxes to the United States. - Monaco: "Getting a residence permit practically requires millionaire status." I think ebrenes framed the situation well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9540888 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9540888 Copied here: ~~~~ While you can theoretically leave the U.S. whenever you want, you cannot stop paying taxes whenever you want. You have to renounce citizenship, pay a fine for renouncing said citizenship to avoid paying taxes and possibly be audited. And you might argue that's fine, because they should be able to collect back taxes but you'll generally have to pay taxes for the next 10 years. ~~~~ 10 years, 20 years, whatever. None of this changes the fact that what is being done in the United States is theft, plain and simple. The government never came to me and asked if I agreed to any of these income taxes, they just say pay up or we'll ruin your life. No negotiation, no agreed upon exchange for goods or services, just extortion.
      - Frondo 11y ago
        It is not theft. You listed several countries you could move to. The fact that you don't want to move to any of them, for whatever reason, does not turn US taxation into "theft". And again, you agree to pay them by continuing to live here. Just like, when you sit down at a restaurant and order a meal, you're agreeing to pay for it without negotiation, without a specific contract outlining specifications for the food, etc. Don't like it? Go to another restaurant.
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago
  >You agree to pay taxes by continuing to live here. Does one agree to civil forfeiture by continuing to live where it is legal?
- nymphatacita 11y ago
  I'd happily pay taxes for a functioning government. That's what I ordered when I sat down. But I daresay that's not what I was served.

Frondo 11y ago

You agree to pay taxes by continuing to live here. Taxes aren't theft any more than the check at the end of a restaurant meal is theft. In both cases, you agree to pay something in exchange for something (a meal, a functioning government, etc).

itistoday2 11y ago
> You agree to pay taxes by continuing to live here. If we were free to move to a country where we agreed with the laws you might be right. That's not reality though. We are not (currently) free to choose how we pay taxes in any country and our freedom to move from one country to another is restricted. So, sorry, I never agreed to pay these taxes, I have little say in how they're used, and I have no alternatives except to go to prison. That's not freedom. That's simply coercion and theft.
- Frondo 11y ago
  You are free to move to another country. The fact that no other country meets your very specific requirements doesn't mean that you are not obligated to pay for living in this one. If no automobile maker will sell you the exact car you want, that does not grant you the right to take a car without paying for it. So, yes, you do agree to pay these taxes by continuing to live here.
  - itistoday2 11y ago
    > You are free to move to another country. Please explain how I can do that. I would actually like to move to Switzerland, could you explain how I can freely do that as everything I've researched indicates it's neither free nor possible in any reasonable amount of time. If not Switzerland I'll settle for some other country where I can live freely and be safe from coercion. > If no automobile maker will sell you the exact car you want... Nobody is forcing me to buy the car with the threat of prison if I don't, and I do not need a car to survive. I do need to live someplace however.
    - Frondo 11y ago
      You can leave the U.S. whenever you want. The U.S. isn't restricting your ability to leave. If the country of your choice doesn't permit you to emigrate, that doesn't mean that you're suddenly free from your obligations to whatever country will host you. Wouldn't that be convenient? "Sir, I don't have to pay taxes. I want to move to Switzerland, but they're full right now, so I can't." (And the "threat of prison" is some of the dumbest hyperbole out of the antitax crowd--for nearly all cases, they'll simply garnish your wages, or something equally non-freedom-constraining.)
      - itistoday2 11y ago
        It doesn't help if all other countries both severely restrict entry and/or force a tax upon you. I'd just end up in the same exact situation. > And the "threat of prison" is some of the dumbest hyperbole... It's not hyperbole. If you willfully fail to file that's grounds for imprisonment: http://www.businessinsider.com/terrible-things-that-could-happen-if-you-dont-do-your-taxes-2014-4 http://www.businessinsider.com/terrible-things-that-could-ha... You're probably thinking of cases when people "forget" or make "mistakes" in their filing. > ...out of the antitax crowd I mentioned this already, I am not anti-tax. Please cut it with the labeling. It's late. We're going in circles. Have a good night, I won't be replying to whatever you post next.
        Frondo 11y ago
- digler990 11y ago
  a quick google search shows you several countries that have no income tax. So sorry, you never researched your own argument.
  - itistoday2 11y ago
    http://nomadcapitalist.com/2013/11/24/top-5-livable-countries-income-tax/ http://nomadcapitalist.com/2013/11/24/top-5-livable-countrie... Of the most "livable" countries: - United Arab Emirates: don't want to live in the middle east, no thanks. I disagree with many of the laws there and have no close family or friends anywhere nearby. - Bahamas: gotta buy land there or pay an annual fee. This is probably the most reasonable of all options, but my work precludes me from living there. - Bermuda: One of the world's most expensive places to live. Possible if I could afford it (can't at the moment). - Andorra: would be awesome. Not sure what the situation is with living there as a non-citizen (it takes 20 years to become one). Since one has to be a citizen of some country one wouldn't be able to renounce their US citizenship for 20 years (at least) and therefore would still have to pay income taxes to the United States. - Monaco: "Getting a residence permit practically requires millionaire status." I think ebrenes framed the situation well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9540888 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9540888 Copied here: ~~~~ While you can theoretically leave the U.S. whenever you want, you cannot stop paying taxes whenever you want. You have to renounce citizenship, pay a fine for renouncing said citizenship to avoid paying taxes and possibly be audited. And you might argue that's fine, because they should be able to collect back taxes but you'll generally have to pay taxes for the next 10 years. ~~~~ 10 years, 20 years, whatever. None of this changes the fact that what is being done in the United States is theft, plain and simple. The government never came to me and asked if I agreed to any of these income taxes, they just say pay up or we'll ruin your life. No negotiation, no agreed upon exchange for goods or services, just extortion.
    - Frondo 11y ago
      It is not theft. You listed several countries you could move to. The fact that you don't want to move to any of them, for whatever reason, does not turn US taxation into "theft". And again, you agree to pay them by continuing to live here. Just like, when you sit down at a restaurant and order a meal, you're agreeing to pay for it without negotiation, without a specific contract outlining specifications for the food, etc. Don't like it? Go to another restaurant.
Lawtonfogle 11y ago
>You agree to pay taxes by continuing to live here. Does one agree to civil forfeiture by continuing to live where it is legal?
nymphatacita 11y ago
I'd happily pay taxes for a functioning government. That's what I ordered when I sat down. But I daresay that's not what I was served.