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Online shaming: The return of mob morality [video]

34 points by cperciva 12y ago

thaumasiotes 12y ago
Return? When did it go away?
- vamonopalmonte 12y ago
  <(''<) WUT CABRON
whoopdedo 12y ago
The bizarre thing is most reactions to a shame posting are negative. Which results in the poster being publicly shamed on social media for daring to shame someone. That is, the most frequent online recrimination I encounter is shame-shaming. Which I think can be generalized to it being socially incorrect these days to express a negative opinion. It seems to be an overreaction to trolls and brigades that anyone who says something that isn't supportive of the main topic is considered to be disruptive. Except among communities that are small enough so the frequent contributors are well known and trusted to be able to express their possibly controversial opinions. Essentially, if you consider reputation the currency of social trade, then there is a tragedy of the commons in large forums.
- zby 12y ago
  The problem is amplification of negative emotions. People are mimetic animals and when negative emotions are displayed publicly they are copied and they spread. People intuitively adopt to that and are very careful when in public (especially speaking in public) - but on-line they somehow don't feel the same pressure.
- PopeOfNope 12y ago
  > The bizarre thing is most reactions to a shame posting are negative. Do you have data for this, or are you judging this based on the reactions from your own social circle? If the latter, then it sounds like you hang out with cool people. Kudos. Unfortunately, I don't think that's the common reaction to shame postings. GamerGate is a great counter-example where shaming those who support GamerGate is positively received by a great number of people. > Except among communities that are small enough so the frequent contributors are well known and trusted to be able to express their possibly controversial opinions. And even then, if those communities are able to be viewed by the public (ie: on a public forum, like a subreddit), they will eventually have negative media campaigns run against them. Public shaming on the scale of an entire subreddit.
  - whoopdedo 12y ago
    > GamerGate is a great counter-example where shaming those who support GamerGate is positively received by a great number of people. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. The controversy of GamerGate was not that there was sexism among gamers. It was that there was conflict regarding when someone complains about sexism. The debate turned away from the salient issue and to arguing for and against whether there should even be a debate. People were complaining about other people complaining, which leads to complaints about those people complaining and so on. Of the public shaming instances I've been aware of, the discussion on the internet has been about whether or not the incident should have been made public, and less about justifying or recriminating what originally happened. It's an odd and frustrating social feedback loop. I wonder if it's related to bureaucratic inertia. Where problems fail to reach a solution because the bureaucracy gets stuck in a cycle of studying the problem, then studying the study of the problem, etc.
commentnull 12y ago
The faux crowdrage these days is depressing. I suppose it is the modern version of the crowd gathering to watch a stoning, hanging or other public spectacle from the middle ages.
- PopeOfNope 12y ago
  Pretty much. Technology advances, but human behavior has remained surprisingly constant over the last 2000+ years.
- rrss1122 12y ago
  It really is, and I do think most of the time it's the crowd being manipulated into a rage. When you see in the news someone demanding an apology from someone else or from a corporation, online shaming and crowd morality is what makes these demands effective.
peteretep 12y ago
There is a certain irony to Adria Richards, who got someone fired by online shaming them[0], complaining about online shaming. [0] https://amandablumwords.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/3/ https://amandablumwords.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/3/
- cperciva 12y ago
  While I think it's entirely appropriate that she got fired over the incident, nobody deserves the death and rape threats that she received.
  - peteretep 12y ago
    I don't think anyone reasonable has suggested she did deserve them. The parent link however gives many more examples of her manufacturing and building outrage to try and self-promote, and attempting to whip up the mob to get her way.
    - cperciva 12y ago
      It's certainly a cautionary tale about mobs turning on those who try to whip them up, yes. To a lesser degree this happens on an almost daily basis on Reddit when people and companies try to manipulate the crowd. My point is simply that, much like the game developer interviewed towards the end of the video who had participated in online shaming until she experienced it herself, Adria Richards' questionable actions do not make her any less a victim.
      - s_baby 12y ago
        >Adria Richards' questionable actions do not make her any less a victim. Yes they do. People are responsible for their actions. You're discussiong this as if it's some abstract ethical hypothetical. In the real world if you try to get ahead at other peoples expense then you should expect retaliation.
    - calibraxis 12y ago
      That's the thing. Adria Richards inhabits a world where many women — Kathy Sierra, etc etc — get death and rape threats DAILY. To their families too. SWAT teams ordered to their house. As far as I'm concerned, Adria Richards did pretty much zero wrong. Such a backwards world with its daily bullshit will get on your nerves and make you snap one day. No way in hell would I ever comment on whether Adria Richards was ever a less-than-pleasant snowflake, because that'd make me part of the problem.
cperciva 12y ago
Thanks to the anonymous moderator for adding the [video] tag. I wouldn't normally post a video here, but I think it does a better job of covering the topic than most essays I've read.
Aoyagi 12y ago
The player doesn't load anything on any of my browsers ( http://puu.sh/hLDaV/068f76f8d1.jpg http://puu.sh/hLDaV/068f76f8d1.jpg ). :(
- brohee 12y ago
  Didn't try nearly as many, but same thing for me.
RyanMcGreal 12y ago
Monica Lewinsky recently gave an excellent TED talk in which she explored the phenomenon of online shaming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_8y0WLm78U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_8y0WLm78U Arguably, Lewinsky has the dubious distinction of being Patient Zero for this modern trend.

34 points by cperciva 12y ago

thaumasiotes 12y ago

Return? When did it go away?

vamonopalmonte 12y ago
<(''<) WUT CABRON

whoopdedo 12y ago

The bizarre thing is most reactions to a shame posting are negative. Which results in the poster being publicly shamed on social media for daring to shame someone. That is, the most frequent online recrimination I encounter is shame-shaming. Which I think can be generalized to it being socially incorrect these days to express a negative opinion. It seems to be an overreaction to trolls and brigades that anyone who says something that isn't supportive of the main topic is considered to be disruptive. Except among communities that are small enough so the frequent contributors are well known and trusted to be able to express their possibly controversial opinions. Essentially, if you consider reputation the currency of social trade, then there is a tragedy of the commons in large forums.

zby 12y ago
The problem is amplification of negative emotions. People are mimetic animals and when negative emotions are displayed publicly they are copied and they spread. People intuitively adopt to that and are very careful when in public (especially speaking in public) - but on-line they somehow don't feel the same pressure.
PopeOfNope 12y ago
> The bizarre thing is most reactions to a shame posting are negative. Do you have data for this, or are you judging this based on the reactions from your own social circle? If the latter, then it sounds like you hang out with cool people. Kudos. Unfortunately, I don't think that's the common reaction to shame postings. GamerGate is a great counter-example where shaming those who support GamerGate is positively received by a great number of people. > Except among communities that are small enough so the frequent contributors are well known and trusted to be able to express their possibly controversial opinions. And even then, if those communities are able to be viewed by the public (ie: on a public forum, like a subreddit), they will eventually have negative media campaigns run against them. Public shaming on the scale of an entire subreddit.
- whoopdedo 12y ago
  > GamerGate is a great counter-example where shaming those who support GamerGate is positively received by a great number of people. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. The controversy of GamerGate was not that there was sexism among gamers. It was that there was conflict regarding when someone complains about sexism. The debate turned away from the salient issue and to arguing for and against whether there should even be a debate. People were complaining about other people complaining, which leads to complaints about those people complaining and so on. Of the public shaming instances I've been aware of, the discussion on the internet has been about whether or not the incident should have been made public, and less about justifying or recriminating what originally happened. It's an odd and frustrating social feedback loop. I wonder if it's related to bureaucratic inertia. Where problems fail to reach a solution because the bureaucracy gets stuck in a cycle of studying the problem, then studying the study of the problem, etc.

commentnull 12y ago

The faux crowdrage these days is depressing. I suppose it is the modern version of the crowd gathering to watch a stoning, hanging or other public spectacle from the middle ages.

PopeOfNope 12y ago
Pretty much. Technology advances, but human behavior has remained surprisingly constant over the last 2000+ years.
rrss1122 12y ago
It really is, and I do think most of the time it's the crowd being manipulated into a rage. When you see in the news someone demanding an apology from someone else or from a corporation, online shaming and crowd morality is what makes these demands effective.

peteretep 12y ago

There is a certain irony to Adria Richards, who got someone fired by online shaming them[0], complaining about online shaming. [0] https://amandablumwords.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/3/ https://amandablumwords.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/3/

cperciva 12y ago
While I think it's entirely appropriate that she got fired over the incident, nobody deserves the death and rape threats that she received.
- peteretep 12y ago
  I don't think anyone reasonable has suggested she did deserve them. The parent link however gives many more examples of her manufacturing and building outrage to try and self-promote, and attempting to whip up the mob to get her way.
  - cperciva 12y ago
    It's certainly a cautionary tale about mobs turning on those who try to whip them up, yes. To a lesser degree this happens on an almost daily basis on Reddit when people and companies try to manipulate the crowd. My point is simply that, much like the game developer interviewed towards the end of the video who had participated in online shaming until she experienced it herself, Adria Richards' questionable actions do not make her any less a victim.
    - s_baby 12y ago
      >Adria Richards' questionable actions do not make her any less a victim. Yes they do. People are responsible for their actions. You're discussiong this as if it's some abstract ethical hypothetical. In the real world if you try to get ahead at other peoples expense then you should expect retaliation.
  - calibraxis 12y ago
    That's the thing. Adria Richards inhabits a world where many women — Kathy Sierra, etc etc — get death and rape threats DAILY. To their families too. SWAT teams ordered to their house. As far as I'm concerned, Adria Richards did pretty much zero wrong. Such a backwards world with its daily bullshit will get on your nerves and make you snap one day. No way in hell would I ever comment on whether Adria Richards was ever a less-than-pleasant snowflake, because that'd make me part of the problem.

cperciva 12y ago

Thanks to the anonymous moderator for adding the [video] tag. I wouldn't normally post a video here, but I think it does a better job of covering the topic than most essays I've read.

Aoyagi 12y ago

The player doesn't load anything on any of my browsers ( http://puu.sh/hLDaV/068f76f8d1.jpg http://puu.sh/hLDaV/068f76f8d1.jpg ). :(

brohee 12y ago
Didn't try nearly as many, but same thing for me.

RyanMcGreal 12y ago

Monica Lewinsky recently gave an excellent TED talk in which she explored the phenomenon of online shaming: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_8y0WLm78U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_8y0WLm78U Arguably, Lewinsky has the dubious distinction of being Patient Zero for this modern trend.