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> It's perfectly OK to disagree with someone; but please consider doing so in a respectful and thoughtful tone. The problem I've found is I literally get ignor

> It's perfectly OK to disagree with someone; but please consider doing so in a respectful and thoughtful tone. The problem I've found is I literally get ignored and end up repeatedly dealing with the same mess until I stop being "kind" about it. I generally have to do literally 10x as much work to be "kind" than when I'm less generous about it. The problem with kindness is its frequently taken [in IT, in places I've worked] as it not being a serious problem that actually needs to be addressed except as a favor to you. It eventually, frequently, gets to the point where serious problems are repeatedly introduced and you end up having to clean it up. Because from their point of view, if it really was a problem, you would have stopped being nice after the first or second time.

JoeAltmaier 11y ago
Miss Manners wrote about her newspaper subscription not arriving. She called repeatedly and was nice. Finally she got somebody in charge who told her "We don't do anything unless the customer is angry". She asked nicely if he would put her down as having been irate. He kindly did.
- serve_yay 11y ago
  Ah, now for the important question - Was she angry or not? My answer is yes.
- fweespeech 11y ago
  Yeah, oddly enough in the real world, no one ever admits that in social situations with coworkers.
hckr1292 11y ago
This is confusing "kind" with "nice". If your audience can handle some directness, be direct. It's okay to say, "This is a horrible idea, and I can't believe we're considering this." That can be kind when you care about the person you're talking to. What's unkind is saying, "You're an idiot, and that's a ridiculous idea." Attacking people is not kind, but directness _can_ be kind. On the other hand, you deserve to be shown some kindness too. If your coworkers don't listen to you, maybe it's time to start looking for a new job.
- fweespeech 11y ago
  > What's unkind is saying, "You're an idiot, and that's a ridiculous idea." Attacking people is not kind, but directness _can_ be kind. I don't call people idiots at work but I can behave in a way some people view as "adversarial". > On the other hand, you deserve to be shown some kindness too. If your coworkers don't listen to you, maybe it's time to start looking for a new job. Oh, they listen they just don't agree. That is the problem with the general "kindness" bit. People simply assume if you are being kind about it that it isn't a big deal. Many, many people operate on the "If you are not upset, this is not a serious issue". After all, if it only impacts them rarely...it isn't important to them personally.
- ridgeguy 11y ago
  I don't understand the down votes you're getting. Your contribution to this discussion seems considered and worth considering.
  - mreiland 11y ago
    He's getting downvotes because no one actually says "you're an idiot" in real life and that comparison has fuck all to do with the actual point anyone in this thread is coming close to.
- pekk 11y ago
  It depends. Saying "horrible idea" and "can't believe we're considering this" will be pointlessly hostile in many situations. Why not just be specific about the problem?
myanonhnaccount 11y ago
> The problem I've found is I literally get ignored and end up repeatedly dealing with the same mess until I stop being "kind" about it. I am currently in a situation like that, and have been in similar situations over the years. There seems to be this gift that many people have where they can lie on a near compulsive basis, and no one will do anything about it. Disagreeing with them in a reasoned and polite manner is beyond ineffective, somehow "you're wrong" on their part wins every argument, regardless of the evidence. Only when you eventually get so fed up and cause a scene pointing out blatant problems, errors, and incompetence, only then does something finally happen, but of course then the response is "hey man, why didn't you just say something?" And despite there being a long paper trail of doing exactly that with no success, this tactic once again wins the day, and the reputation of the one who freaks out is the one that is tarnished in the eyes of management. And then of course, the cycle begins all over again. I don't ask why you have to put a gun to some people's heads to get them to do the job they are paid (handsomely) for, that I can understand, but why is it so common that no one is willing to stand up for what is right, and for management to allow this behavior? I have seen it on different projects in different cities, and across various industries. It really makes me wonder if somehow the problem is with me and I try to reason through that, but as hard as I try I just can't make that case.

JoeAltmaier 11y ago

Miss Manners wrote about her newspaper subscription not arriving. She called repeatedly and was nice. Finally she got somebody in charge who told her "We don't do anything unless the customer is angry". She asked nicely if he would put her down as having been irate. He kindly did.

serve_yay 11y ago
Ah, now for the important question - Was she angry or not? My answer is yes.
fweespeech 11y ago
Yeah, oddly enough in the real world, no one ever admits that in social situations with coworkers.

hckr1292 11y ago

This is confusing "kind" with "nice". If your audience can handle some directness, be direct. It's okay to say, "This is a horrible idea, and I can't believe we're considering this." That can be kind when you care about the person you're talking to. What's unkind is saying, "You're an idiot, and that's a ridiculous idea." Attacking people is not kind, but directness _can_ be kind. On the other hand, you deserve to be shown some kindness too. If your coworkers don't listen to you, maybe it's time to start looking for a new job.

fweespeech 11y ago
> What's unkind is saying, "You're an idiot, and that's a ridiculous idea." Attacking people is not kind, but directness _can_ be kind. I don't call people idiots at work but I can behave in a way some people view as "adversarial". > On the other hand, you deserve to be shown some kindness too. If your coworkers don't listen to you, maybe it's time to start looking for a new job. Oh, they listen they just don't agree. That is the problem with the general "kindness" bit. People simply assume if you are being kind about it that it isn't a big deal. Many, many people operate on the "If you are not upset, this is not a serious issue". After all, if it only impacts them rarely...it isn't important to them personally.
ridgeguy 11y ago
I don't understand the down votes you're getting. Your contribution to this discussion seems considered and worth considering.
- mreiland 11y ago
  He's getting downvotes because no one actually says "you're an idiot" in real life and that comparison has fuck all to do with the actual point anyone in this thread is coming close to.
pekk 11y ago
It depends. Saying "horrible idea" and "can't believe we're considering this" will be pointlessly hostile in many situations. Why not just be specific about the problem?

myanonhnaccount 11y ago

> The problem I've found is I literally get ignored and end up repeatedly dealing with the same mess until I stop being "kind" about it. I am currently in a situation like that, and have been in similar situations over the years. There seems to be this gift that many people have where they can lie on a near compulsive basis, and no one will do anything about it. Disagreeing with them in a reasoned and polite manner is beyond ineffective, somehow "you're wrong" on their part wins every argument, regardless of the evidence. Only when you eventually get so fed up and cause a scene pointing out blatant problems, errors, and incompetence, only then does something finally happen, but of course then the response is "hey man, why didn't you just say something?" And despite there being a long paper trail of doing exactly that with no success, this tactic once again wins the day, and the reputation of the one who freaks out is the one that is tarnished in the eyes of management. And then of course, the cycle begins all over again. I don't ask why you have to put a gun to some people's heads to get them to do the job they are paid (handsomely) for, that I can understand, but why is it so common that no one is willing to stand up for what is right, and for management to allow this behavior? I have seen it on different projects in different cities, and across various industries. It really makes me wonder if somehow the problem is with me and I try to reason through that, but as hard as I try I just can't make that case.