8 ms·

You know, I'm sick of people making such a big deal just becasue Mozilla lost its CEO in such an awful way that he didn't even return to his CTO role. Just beca

by hoopd 11y ago

You know, I'm sick of people making such a big deal just becasue Mozilla lost its CEO in such an awful way that he didn't even return to his CTO role. Just because he literally wrote JavaScript, co-founded Mozilla and worked on Firefox since it was called Netscape Navigator it doesn't mean he should be able to take part in America's political process in a way that some find offensive.

Karunamon 11y ago
*most find offensive. It is possible for someone to be a brilliant technologist and an otherwise awful person. And before someone takes me to task for the words "awful person" - sorry, that's my evaluation of someone who'd rather lose their job than say sorry for the prejudice.
- eps 11y ago
  *some. Being vocal/hysterical about something doesn't imply it's a dominant opinion.
  - callahad 11y ago
    According to the Pew Research Center's polling, most Americans are in favor of marriage equality, and have been since 2011: http://www.pewforum.org/2014/09/24/graphics-slideshow-changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/ http://www.pewforum.org/2014/09/24/graphics-slideshow-changi...
    - contravariant 11y ago
      There's a difference between being in favour of something and being offended by anyone who disagrees.
      - Karunamon 11y ago
        There's a difference between being offended at disagreement and being offended at someone who took action to remove your rights.
    - andrepd 11y ago
      Which doesn't mean in the slightest that whomever disagrees with the majority deserves to be kicked out of the company he founded.
      - byuu 11y ago
        Good thing he wasn't kicked out then, and instead voluntarily resigned, right?
        andrepd 11y ago
        He resigned because of the clamour of the bullies, and because he didn't want the Mozilla Foundation to get hurt with it.
        byuu 11y ago
        Exactly! He managed to put the company's best interests before his own, and chose to resign. But he wasn't fired: the Mozilla board did not ask for his resignation. He could have stayed if he wanted to.
- hoopd 11y ago
  Well allow me to extend thanks to you and everybody like you for damaging a very important Open Source project at a very important time. I understand it would have been difficult to sit down at the negotiation table with Eich and set an example for everybody of how to work with people you have disagreements with, but it would have been the right thing to do. Either way, you won. I hope it was worth it.
  - Karunamon 11y ago
    How do you foresee a negotiation with someone's core values progressing? There's a fundamental incompatibility there, not just something that can be talked and reasoned around. You personally, the guy typing the letters into this box, what do you think the outcome of such a "negotiation" would be if it were as successful as humanly possible? At the end of the day, Mozilla's entire mission statement is contrary to Eich's stated beliefs. Were we talking about peons rather than C-levels, the words would be "bad culture fit".
    - angersock 11y ago
      "Eich's stated beliefs." Where were these beliefs stated, other than a campaign contribution?
      - Karunamon 11y ago
        Does donating to a thing imply anything other than support for the thing? Does someone who donates to a presidential campaign envision any other outcome than election of the donate-ee? Does someone who donates to a political lobbying group envision any other outcome other than fulfillment of the lobbying group's goals? It's not like he donated to someone who just happened to have an odious belief, he donated to a group who's entire reason for existing is straight-up bigotry.
        angersock 11y ago
        None of those match "stated beliefs". At best, you infer support--similarly, you might say that by voting for Obama one supports drone strikes on civilians. This whole thing is screwy enough as it is without putting words in people's mouths to then feign outrage over.
- andrepd 11y ago
  >*most Can you give me some data to support your claim? Or do you abide by the motto "The louder I speak the righter I am?"
  - Karunamon 11y ago
    http://www.pewforum.org/2014/09/24/graphics-slideshow-changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/ http://www.pewforum.org/2014/09/24/graphics-slideshow-changi...
- MichaelGG 11y ago
  It's terrible if it was for being offensive. What it should have been about was a lack of elegance and logic. Marriage should be a legal/tax/etc contract between 2 or more consenting entities that can legally enter into contracts. Anything else is a hack, and en engineer should know better. (There's also the minor issue of running an org with policies directly against your own. While not technically a blocking issue, one must wonder about a person's commitment to something when they are actively against it in their personal life.)
- byuu 11y ago
  That's the only thing I respect him for. That he wasn't willing to lie about his position and say his views had changed. Because if he had, it would have knocked all the wind out of the opposition's sails. Yes, he's absolutely an awful, vile person who thinks he's better than other people and entitled to special rights. But at least he's not also a liar. What bothers me more is the way everyone perpetuates the lie that he was fired. Nobody forced him out. The Mozilla board were completely tone-deaf to the outrage it caused. He voluntarily resigned because he realized the harm he was causing the company; but if he wanted to, he could have stuck around anyway. But if some fantasy narrative exists where the board gave him a secret ultimatum, then I take back what I said about respecting him for not being a liar.
  - notsony 11y ago
    Please stop posting your nonsense that Brendan Eich voluntarily resigned. Everybody knows that he was forced out and to pretend otherwise is insulting to anybody reading.
    - Karunamon 11y ago
      There are no facts to support your conclusion.
      - hoopd 11y ago
        Eich was actively coerced into leaving under threat of boycotts and continued disruption of his business by the "social justice" community. You don't get to hold a witch-hunt and then shrug your shoulders when the witch you were hunting fled town.
        byuu 11y ago
        Yes, that's how free speech works. But Eich did not have to resign. The board never even so much as asked him to step down. He chose to step down because he realized how toxic he was to his company's reputation as CEO. The owner of Chik-Fil-A has taken a lot of flack too for his hateful views, but he sticks around anyway. And as a result, I don't eat there. Eich could have done the same if he wanted, and I would have just not used Firefox at all anymore. And now if you don't want to use Firefox because he chose to resign, then don't. That's your right. If you want to complain about others who protested his promotion, do so. That's your right. But don't claim he was fired when he clearly wasn't. Mozilla's own press release states very clearly that it was voluntary. The tech community tends to be more progressive than fast food consumers, so the pushback was a bit louder. But Eich had plenty of bigots on his side of this, too. After all, roughly 45% of the country still believes gay people are not deserving of equal treatment under the law.
- serge2k 11y ago
  Not when he contributed. the proposition did pass after all.

by hoopd 11y ago

Karunamon 11y ago

*most find offensive. It is possible for someone to be a brilliant technologist and an otherwise awful person. And before someone takes me to task for the words "awful person" - sorry, that's my evaluation of someone who'd rather lose their job than say sorry for the prejudice.

eps 11y ago
*some. Being vocal/hysterical about something doesn't imply it's a dominant opinion.
- callahad 11y ago
  According to the Pew Research Center's polling, most Americans are in favor of marriage equality, and have been since 2011: http://www.pewforum.org/2014/09/24/graphics-slideshow-changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/ http://www.pewforum.org/2014/09/24/graphics-slideshow-changi...
  - contravariant 11y ago
    There's a difference between being in favour of something and being offended by anyone who disagrees.
    - Karunamon 11y ago
      There's a difference between being offended at disagreement and being offended at someone who took action to remove your rights.
  - andrepd 11y ago
    Which doesn't mean in the slightest that whomever disagrees with the majority deserves to be kicked out of the company he founded.
    - byuu 11y ago
      Good thing he wasn't kicked out then, and instead voluntarily resigned, right?
      - andrepd 11y ago
        He resigned because of the clamour of the bullies, and because he didn't want the Mozilla Foundation to get hurt with it.
        byuu 11y ago
        Exactly! He managed to put the company's best interests before his own, and chose to resign. But he wasn't fired: the Mozilla board did not ask for his resignation. He could have stayed if he wanted to.
hoopd 11y ago
Well allow me to extend thanks to you and everybody like you for damaging a very important Open Source project at a very important time. I understand it would have been difficult to sit down at the negotiation table with Eich and set an example for everybody of how to work with people you have disagreements with, but it would have been the right thing to do. Either way, you won. I hope it was worth it.
- Karunamon 11y ago
  How do you foresee a negotiation with someone's core values progressing? There's a fundamental incompatibility there, not just something that can be talked and reasoned around. You personally, the guy typing the letters into this box, what do you think the outcome of such a "negotiation" would be if it were as successful as humanly possible? At the end of the day, Mozilla's entire mission statement is contrary to Eich's stated beliefs. Were we talking about peons rather than C-levels, the words would be "bad culture fit".
  - angersock 11y ago
    "Eich's stated beliefs." Where were these beliefs stated, other than a campaign contribution?
    - Karunamon 11y ago
      Does donating to a thing imply anything other than support for the thing? Does someone who donates to a presidential campaign envision any other outcome than election of the donate-ee? Does someone who donates to a political lobbying group envision any other outcome other than fulfillment of the lobbying group's goals? It's not like he donated to someone who just happened to have an odious belief, he donated to a group who's entire reason for existing is straight-up bigotry.
      - angersock 11y ago
        None of those match "stated beliefs". At best, you infer support--similarly, you might say that by voting for Obama one supports drone strikes on civilians. This whole thing is screwy enough as it is without putting words in people's mouths to then feign outrage over.
andrepd 11y ago
>*most Can you give me some data to support your claim? Or do you abide by the motto "The louder I speak the righter I am?"
- Karunamon 11y ago
  http://www.pewforum.org/2014/09/24/graphics-slideshow-changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/ http://www.pewforum.org/2014/09/24/graphics-slideshow-changi...
MichaelGG 11y ago
It's terrible if it was for being offensive. What it should have been about was a lack of elegance and logic. Marriage should be a legal/tax/etc contract between 2 or more consenting entities that can legally enter into contracts. Anything else is a hack, and en engineer should know better. (There's also the minor issue of running an org with policies directly against your own. While not technically a blocking issue, one must wonder about a person's commitment to something when they are actively against it in their personal life.)
byuu 11y ago
That's the only thing I respect him for. That he wasn't willing to lie about his position and say his views had changed. Because if he had, it would have knocked all the wind out of the opposition's sails. Yes, he's absolutely an awful, vile person who thinks he's better than other people and entitled to special rights. But at least he's not also a liar. What bothers me more is the way everyone perpetuates the lie that he was fired. Nobody forced him out. The Mozilla board were completely tone-deaf to the outrage it caused. He voluntarily resigned because he realized the harm he was causing the company; but if he wanted to, he could have stuck around anyway. But if some fantasy narrative exists where the board gave him a secret ultimatum, then I take back what I said about respecting him for not being a liar.
- notsony 11y ago
  Please stop posting your nonsense that Brendan Eich voluntarily resigned. Everybody knows that he was forced out and to pretend otherwise is insulting to anybody reading.
  - Karunamon 11y ago
    There are no facts to support your conclusion.
    - hoopd 11y ago
      Eich was actively coerced into leaving under threat of boycotts and continued disruption of his business by the "social justice" community. You don't get to hold a witch-hunt and then shrug your shoulders when the witch you were hunting fled town.
      - byuu 11y ago
        Yes, that's how free speech works. But Eich did not have to resign. The board never even so much as asked him to step down. He chose to step down because he realized how toxic he was to his company's reputation as CEO. The owner of Chik-Fil-A has taken a lot of flack too for his hateful views, but he sticks around anyway. And as a result, I don't eat there. Eich could have done the same if he wanted, and I would have just not used Firefox at all anymore. And now if you don't want to use Firefox because he chose to resign, then don't. That's your right. If you want to complain about others who protested his promotion, do so. That's your right. But don't claim he was fired when he clearly wasn't. Mozilla's own press release states very clearly that it was voluntary. The tech community tends to be more progressive than fast food consumers, so the pushback was a bit louder. But Eich had plenty of bigots on his side of this, too. After all, roughly 45% of the country still believes gay people are not deserving of equal treatment under the law.
serge2k 11y ago
Not when he contributed. the proposition did pass after all.