9 ms·

Yeah, but at least we managed to get that hateful bigot out of the company! That's important, right? </sarcasm> More seriously, we really do have a problem, bu

Yeah, but at least we managed to get that hateful bigot out of the company! That's important, right? </sarcasm> More seriously, we really do have a problem, but it looks like the users just don't want to be free.

dec0dedab0de 11y ago
but it looks like the users just don't want to be free. The users don't care. I have never been able to convince a layperson why DRM should matter at all to them, have you?.
- therealfoxy 11y ago
  Yep - when they asked why the online service that they bought DRM ridden content from closed, and now their purchases were lost (they were asking what to do/how to do it).
  - dabockster 11y ago
    How many people is that, though? 10 out of the 7 billion people on Earth? That's a very small fraction. Unless the world population suddenly decides to become digitally literate enough to understand the web in a programmer's context, these patterns of bad unwritten standards will continue out of convenience for the "soccer mom" end user.
  - dec0dedab0de 11y ago
    That is a really good argument, but doesn't apply to streaming.
  - jamespo 11y ago
    What service was that?
    - PhantomGremlin 11y ago
      There have been a plethora of these. I don't remember much because I'd NEVER pay for DRMed media that I wasn't sure I couldn't get around. E.g. DVD is OK since there are plenty of rippers. Here are a few cases I recall: Microsoft screwed a bunch of people with PlaysForSure. Even the brown bar of turd wouldn't play it: The Zune and PlaysForSure music are both Certified for Windows Vista, yet the Zune cannot play PlaysForSure music purchased from the MSN Music Store[1] MLB did the same thing: Some hardcore baseball fans have been left stranded on third base by Major League Baseball after it decided to change DRM systems. As a result, game footage purchased under the old DRM scheme are no longer viewable, leaving fans with unwatchable footage—and no refunds.[2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plays_for_sure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plays_for_sure [2] http://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2007/11/major-league-baseballs-drm-change-strikes-out-with-fans/ http://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2007/11/major-league-ba...
- dabockster 11y ago
  Right on it. Most users use the things they do because they're either easy or there is no other feasible choice. Will a user download a plugin when a browser can now "guarantee" most forms of content to play without one? I know I probably wouldn't. Adobe just became an unwritten standard... again.
  - angersock 11y ago
    That's the annoying part, right? Surely there was, at least, some kind of open-source alternative for getting/fetching/caching these keys? Or does it truly rely on blackbox obfuscation?
    - jarrettc 11y ago
      > Or does it truly rely on blackbox obfuscation? The client ultimately has to decrypt the data somehow. So the key is there on the client. I take it obfuscation is the only thing standing between the user and that key. Am I correct about that? Which makes me wonder: How much security does HTML5 DRM really provide? Security through obscurity is a very weak defense, and one that is almost invariable defeated sooner or later. Will this really prove a hindrance to piracy in the long run?
      - serge2k 11y ago
        This isn't security through obscurity, unless the DRM implementation being a secret actually does provide security. I doubt it does, beyond the fact that an audit of the source could probably find a load of security issues. Of course an audit of OpenSSL would do the same.
        dec0dedab0de 11y ago
        * unless the DRM implementation being a secret actually does provide security.* It Does, because it is illegal(at least in the US) to reverse engineer it.
        jarrettc 11y ago
- angersock 11y ago
  The best I've gotten is when we can't watch something on a project from a macbook because ~hdcp~.
- DanBC 11y ago
  "That DVD you bought? The one from a different region? It won't play and the reason it won't play is because of DRM. You think you can just put it in your laptop and use VLC, but you forget that your laptop DVD drive is probably region-locked in firmware, so although yes VLC ignores region coding the drive doesn't, and will enforce the region coding and refuse to play your DVD. I can fix it for you. Here's the list of stuff we need to do: 1) Find out the drive name and model number. 2) Find and download a firmware file for that drive. 3) Patch the firmware to turn it either into RPC1 or into auto-restarting RPC2. 4) Flash the file. 5) Carefully never ever use certain software and always cancel out of certain dialog boxes. All this just because rights-holders want to stop you buying a new DVD from outside your region."
  - pikzen 11y ago
    The amount of people buying off-region DVDs is awfully low. There are a thousand betters reasons to reject DRM such as not owning your product anymore ("That iTunes music ? Yeah, they can revoke your access at any time.").
    - npinguy 11y ago
      The ability to do something does not hold any weight with the people you're trying to convince. "Oh sure, Apple can revoke my access time, but they never would!" It's the same thing as "Oh I'm sure the government COULD access all my data, but why would they want to?" Region-locking affects more people than you might think, just not with DVDs anymore. Most of the world using reddit/hackernews/the internet is constantly faced with the frustration of clicking on a youtube link and seeing the copyright notice that says the content is restricted to US-only.
      - byuu 11y ago
        The US gets that, too. We get it a bit less because so much is produced here; but I've definitely had my share of "Sorry, the owner of this video has not made it available in your region" notices. It would be nice if it told me which regions were allowed, so I knew which VPN I should use :P
- azakai 11y ago
  > The users don't care. That's true, but I think it's a cop out. When Google, Microsoft and Netflix specced, implemented and shipped EME, there was no significant pushback. Of course, as you say, average users don't care - they don't even understand the issue. But tech people didn't care enough either. Instead, tech people flocked to products made by at least 2 of those 3 responsible for EME. And they kept installing those products for their non-techie relatives and so forth. The real reason EME was not stopped is that people in the tech industry didn't care. A few of us did, of course, but the majority of us simply didn't. Most tech people agree that DRM is bad, but as a group we did not decrease our usage of Google, Microsoft and Netflix products containing EME. We could have stopped this. We didn't.
hoopd 11y ago
You know, I'm sick of people making such a big deal just becasue Mozilla lost its CEO in such an awful way that he didn't even return to his CTO role. Just because he literally wrote JavaScript, co-founded Mozilla and worked on Firefox since it was called Netscape Navigator it doesn't mean he should be able to take part in America's political process in a way that some find offensive.
- Karunamon 11y ago
  *most find offensive. It is possible for someone to be a brilliant technologist and an otherwise awful person. And before someone takes me to task for the words "awful person" - sorry, that's my evaluation of someone who'd rather lose their job than say sorry for the prejudice.
  - eps 11y ago
    *some. Being vocal/hysterical about something doesn't imply it's a dominant opinion.
    - callahad 11y ago
      According to the Pew Research Center's polling, most Americans are in favor of marriage equality, and have been since 2011: http://www.pewforum.org/2014/09/24/graphics-slideshow-changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/ http://www.pewforum.org/2014/09/24/graphics-slideshow-changi...
      - contravariant 11y ago
        There's a difference between being in favour of something and being offended by anyone who disagrees.
        Karunamon 11y ago
        There's a difference between being offended at disagreement and being offended at someone who took action to remove your rights.

dec0dedab0de 11y ago

but it looks like the users just don't want to be free. The users don't care. I have never been able to convince a layperson why DRM should matter at all to them, have you?.

therealfoxy 11y ago
Yep - when they asked why the online service that they bought DRM ridden content from closed, and now their purchases were lost (they were asking what to do/how to do it).
- dabockster 11y ago
  How many people is that, though? 10 out of the 7 billion people on Earth? That's a very small fraction. Unless the world population suddenly decides to become digitally literate enough to understand the web in a programmer's context, these patterns of bad unwritten standards will continue out of convenience for the "soccer mom" end user.
- dec0dedab0de 11y ago
  That is a really good argument, but doesn't apply to streaming.
- jamespo 11y ago
  What service was that?
  - PhantomGremlin 11y ago
    There have been a plethora of these. I don't remember much because I'd NEVER pay for DRMed media that I wasn't sure I couldn't get around. E.g. DVD is OK since there are plenty of rippers. Here are a few cases I recall: Microsoft screwed a bunch of people with PlaysForSure. Even the brown bar of turd wouldn't play it: The Zune and PlaysForSure music are both Certified for Windows Vista, yet the Zune cannot play PlaysForSure music purchased from the MSN Music Store[1] MLB did the same thing: Some hardcore baseball fans have been left stranded on third base by Major League Baseball after it decided to change DRM systems. As a result, game footage purchased under the old DRM scheme are no longer viewable, leaving fans with unwatchable footage—and no refunds.[2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plays_for_sure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plays_for_sure [2] http://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2007/11/major-league-baseballs-drm-change-strikes-out-with-fans/ http://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2007/11/major-league-ba...
dabockster 11y ago
Right on it. Most users use the things they do because they're either easy or there is no other feasible choice. Will a user download a plugin when a browser can now "guarantee" most forms of content to play without one? I know I probably wouldn't. Adobe just became an unwritten standard... again.
- angersock 11y ago
  That's the annoying part, right? Surely there was, at least, some kind of open-source alternative for getting/fetching/caching these keys? Or does it truly rely on blackbox obfuscation?
  - jarrettc 11y ago
    > Or does it truly rely on blackbox obfuscation? The client ultimately has to decrypt the data somehow. So the key is there on the client. I take it obfuscation is the only thing standing between the user and that key. Am I correct about that? Which makes me wonder: How much security does HTML5 DRM really provide? Security through obscurity is a very weak defense, and one that is almost invariable defeated sooner or later. Will this really prove a hindrance to piracy in the long run?
    - serge2k 11y ago
      This isn't security through obscurity, unless the DRM implementation being a secret actually does provide security. I doubt it does, beyond the fact that an audit of the source could probably find a load of security issues. Of course an audit of OpenSSL would do the same.
      - dec0dedab0de 11y ago
        * unless the DRM implementation being a secret actually does provide security.* It Does, because it is illegal(at least in the US) to reverse engineer it.
      - jarrettc 11y ago
angersock 11y ago
The best I've gotten is when we can't watch something on a project from a macbook because ~hdcp~.
DanBC 11y ago
"That DVD you bought? The one from a different region? It won't play and the reason it won't play is because of DRM. You think you can just put it in your laptop and use VLC, but you forget that your laptop DVD drive is probably region-locked in firmware, so although yes VLC ignores region coding the drive doesn't, and will enforce the region coding and refuse to play your DVD. I can fix it for you. Here's the list of stuff we need to do: 1) Find out the drive name and model number. 2) Find and download a firmware file for that drive. 3) Patch the firmware to turn it either into RPC1 or into auto-restarting RPC2. 4) Flash the file. 5) Carefully never ever use certain software and always cancel out of certain dialog boxes. All this just because rights-holders want to stop you buying a new DVD from outside your region."
- pikzen 11y ago
  The amount of people buying off-region DVDs is awfully low. There are a thousand betters reasons to reject DRM such as not owning your product anymore ("That iTunes music ? Yeah, they can revoke your access at any time.").
  - npinguy 11y ago
    The ability to do something does not hold any weight with the people you're trying to convince. "Oh sure, Apple can revoke my access time, but they never would!" It's the same thing as "Oh I'm sure the government COULD access all my data, but why would they want to?" Region-locking affects more people than you might think, just not with DVDs anymore. Most of the world using reddit/hackernews/the internet is constantly faced with the frustration of clicking on a youtube link and seeing the copyright notice that says the content is restricted to US-only.
    - byuu 11y ago
      The US gets that, too. We get it a bit less because so much is produced here; but I've definitely had my share of "Sorry, the owner of this video has not made it available in your region" notices. It would be nice if it told me which regions were allowed, so I knew which VPN I should use :P
azakai 11y ago
> The users don't care. That's true, but I think it's a cop out. When Google, Microsoft and Netflix specced, implemented and shipped EME, there was no significant pushback. Of course, as you say, average users don't care - they don't even understand the issue. But tech people didn't care enough either. Instead, tech people flocked to products made by at least 2 of those 3 responsible for EME. And they kept installing those products for their non-techie relatives and so forth. The real reason EME was not stopped is that people in the tech industry didn't care. A few of us did, of course, but the majority of us simply didn't. Most tech people agree that DRM is bad, but as a group we did not decrease our usage of Google, Microsoft and Netflix products containing EME. We could have stopped this. We didn't.

hoopd 11y ago

You know, I'm sick of people making such a big deal just becasue Mozilla lost its CEO in such an awful way that he didn't even return to his CTO role. Just because he literally wrote JavaScript, co-founded Mozilla and worked on Firefox since it was called Netscape Navigator it doesn't mean he should be able to take part in America's political process in a way that some find offensive.

Karunamon 11y ago
*most find offensive. It is possible for someone to be a brilliant technologist and an otherwise awful person. And before someone takes me to task for the words "awful person" - sorry, that's my evaluation of someone who'd rather lose their job than say sorry for the prejudice.
- eps 11y ago
  *some. Being vocal/hysterical about something doesn't imply it's a dominant opinion.
  - callahad 11y ago
    According to the Pew Research Center's polling, most Americans are in favor of marriage equality, and have been since 2011: http://www.pewforum.org/2014/09/24/graphics-slideshow-changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/ http://www.pewforum.org/2014/09/24/graphics-slideshow-changi...
    - contravariant 11y ago
      There's a difference between being in favour of something and being offended by anyone who disagrees.
      - Karunamon 11y ago
        There's a difference between being offended at disagreement and being offended at someone who took action to remove your rights.