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I have definitely seen people do things that make someone else happy, but makes the first person less happy and provides that first person with no benefit. I'm

I have definitely seen people do things that make someone else happy, but makes the first person less happy and provides that first person with no benefit. I'm just one data point on a screen, but is that evidence for what you would call selflessness?

kagamine 12y ago
I suppose a cynic would claim that even though the giver is aware of the unhappiness it causes them, material loss, status in the eyes of others etc, the gain is made from "doing the right thing". A real cynic would say that fighting in WWII was for the glory of dying an heroic death. Posthumous acknowledgement of heroism and honor. But I happen to think many of those who fought in that particular war knew their fate and truly were selfless.
- EliRivers 12y ago
  The case I had in mind involved enabling a drug addict to get more drugs. The only gain was that the addict became less unhappy for a time. Anyway, I propose that given that humans (possibly barring autistics etc) operate by building models of the minds of other people inside their own head, if a person does something based on that model to help the modelled person become more happy, it's a selfless act - I can quite literally create a model of someone else inside my head, calculate how to make them happy based on that model, and then do it. I'm not modelling how I can make myself feel good, or modelling how I'll look like a big man for helping someone; I'm modelling another person's emotions to work out how to make them happy.
Lawtonfogle 12y ago
I've also seen people do things that offer no benefits to others but makes themselves unhappy. Either the person was acting irrationally or there was some benefit from being unhappy. If the latter, then helping someone else may have been the best way to lower one's own happiness. (As to why someone wants to be less happy, it can get dark fast. Look into why people will cut themselves to see rational reasoning for deliberately harming oneself.)

kagamine 12y ago

I suppose a cynic would claim that even though the giver is aware of the unhappiness it causes them, material loss, status in the eyes of others etc, the gain is made from "doing the right thing". A real cynic would say that fighting in WWII was for the glory of dying an heroic death. Posthumous acknowledgement of heroism and honor. But I happen to think many of those who fought in that particular war knew their fate and truly were selfless.

EliRivers 12y ago
The case I had in mind involved enabling a drug addict to get more drugs. The only gain was that the addict became less unhappy for a time. Anyway, I propose that given that humans (possibly barring autistics etc) operate by building models of the minds of other people inside their own head, if a person does something based on that model to help the modelled person become more happy, it's a selfless act - I can quite literally create a model of someone else inside my head, calculate how to make them happy based on that model, and then do it. I'm not modelling how I can make myself feel good, or modelling how I'll look like a big man for helping someone; I'm modelling another person's emotions to work out how to make them happy.

Lawtonfogle 12y ago

I've also seen people do things that offer no benefits to others but makes themselves unhappy. Either the person was acting irrationally or there was some benefit from being unhappy. If the latter, then helping someone else may have been the best way to lower one's own happiness. (As to why someone wants to be less happy, it can get dark fast. Look into why people will cut themselves to see rational reasoning for deliberately harming oneself.)