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That's just the usual faux complexity and "fair and balanced" smokescreen. Any religion that fundamentally doesn't tolerate the existence of other religions an

That's just the usual faux complexity and "fair and balanced" smokescreen. Any religion that fundamentally doesn't tolerate the existence of other religions and calls its followers to slaughter those who don't convert is "bad religion". Islam is a "bad religion". There is a fundamental difference between the violent excesses of an ideology, an ideology than almost inevitably leads to violent excesses and an ideology the prescribes violence. The Islam is all the way at the extreme end of that spectrum.

dghf 11y ago
> Any religion that fundamentally doesn't tolerate the existence of other religions and calls its followers to slaughter those who don't convert is "bad religion". Islam is a "bad religion". Well, if that's what Islam calls its followers to do, it's a good job most of those followers don't pay any attention. Even Iran permits Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians to worship within its borders: they are subject to discrimination and harassment, but not forced to convert to Islam under pain of death.
- cygx 11y ago
  You're aware what happens to apostates in Iran? Also note that there are special allowances made for people of the Book, so Jews and Christians are not quite as bad off as others, theologically speaking.
  - dghf 11y ago
    Yes, I'm aware of the penalties for apostasy in Iran, and that the toleration shown to Jews and Christians is not extended to other faiths (it would seem the Bahá'í get a particularly rough time of it). But the comment I was replying to made a blanket statement that Islam calls for the slaughter and forced conversion of those of other religions, when the facts simply don't bear that out. Yes, some Muslim individuals and groups do hold to such an extreme interpretation of Islam; and media reports do suggest that most religiously inspired killings are committed by Muslims. But most Muslims don't hold such a stance, and most Muslim countries do allow at least some measure of religious toleration -- even a theocracy like Iran. The most notable exception, of course, is the West's ally Saudi Arabia.
    - cygx 11y ago
      Take the data from the 2013 Pew poll, which theoretically represents about 1 billion muslims. One of the questions was about support for the death penalty for apostasy. The report doesn't come with a global average, but you can go to the annex, add some census data and do the math yourself. You'll end up with a number of ~40%. The idea that all muslims are out to kill infidels is of course ridiculous hyperbole. Nevertheless, I consider the number I just quoted worryingly high.
      - dghf 11y ago
        I agree with you.
mercurial 11y ago
> Any religion that fundamentally doesn't tolerate the existence of other religions and calls its followers to slaughter those who don't convert is "bad religion". Islam is a "bad religion". You don't seem to know much about Islam. Let me leave this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya You can argue that it is discrimination, but if you consider the status of Islam and Judaism during the Middle Ages and the Renaissance in Europe, you would think Christianity is a "bad religion". It is certainly true that in several areas, Islam has been hijacked by violent fundamentalists, but it does not make Islam, by nature, incompatible with other faiths.
- viraptor 11y ago
  Well, he may not know much about Islam. I don't either. But even the page you linked quotes: "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "Jesus will come again, and at that time will (among other things) abolish jizya, will "perish all religions except Islam"" Which I would translate to simple words as: slaughter those who are different, unless they pay you. If they do, whoever is accepted as Jesus can slaughter them later anyway. In modern world that's protection racket. PS, While it sounds harsh, that's how I understand it. If that's not the right idea, please do explain it better.
  - mercurial 11y ago
    The point is that this system, while penalizing non-muslims, allowed a mostly peaceful coexistence between different belief systems in the Islamic world, thus demonstrating by example that the notion of Islam not being compatible with other religions is wrong. On the other hand, the tolerance track record of, say, the Catholic Church was fairly dismal until its influence over politics became dramatically curtailed.
    - viraptor 11y ago
      Honestly, I don't think I can accept that as a "peaceful" solution. Same as mafia can't be described as peaceful when asking for money not to destroy your business. Simple test - any other religion with the same rule wouldn't be able to coexist peacefully. It's just luck that we have only one.
seren 11y ago
Five hundred years ago, Christianity was as bad (see reformation, st bartholomew's day massacre). Things are much better now. Has "Christianity" changed that much ? The core of the faith is still the same. In my opinion, what has changed is rather all the "other factors" : i.e. when you are literate, well-fed, do not feel oppressed or unjustly treated you are less likely to hack your neighbor to death. Does that make Christianity a good or bad religion ? Or Christianity now is good while it was bad before ? I understand what you are saying, but I think I am interpreting events differently. One last point, if you have a look on the last few hundreds years in Europe, you will find, and I probably miss a few religious wars : - catholics vs Cathars and various heretical movement - catholics vs protestants - christians vs jews And as the ideology changed: - monarchists vs republicans - marxists vs fascists etc ad nauseam. I do think the "Us vs Them" mentality is a constant of the human experience, and with or without religion of any sort, we will find new ways to be divided (see hooligans, is there something more stupid that dying for your team ?). And I believe that the debate around Islam is just another epiphenomena that will be replaced by something else in 50 or 100 years.
DanBC 11y ago
> Any religion that fundamentally doesn't tolerate the existence of other religions and calls its followers to slaughter those who don't convert is "bad religion" Christianity is a bad religion. See the genocide of Bosnian muslims by Serb christians during the Bosnian genocide. (1995 approx) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_in_the_Bosnian_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_in_the_Bosnian... Christianity is a bad religion. See the murder of muslims by Christians in Central African Republic. (2014, ongoing) http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/10/central-african-republic-christian-militias-revenge http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/10/central-african... I'm interested in how you're going to contort this to say that these genocides of non-Christians by Christians is somehow different to the massacres you've mentioned.
- viraptor 11y ago
  > Christianity is a bad religion. Yes, it is. But I don't think it actually calls for killing people practising other religions. (In the new testament, that is) Does it?
  - DanBC 11y ago
    > But I don't think it actually calls for killing people practising other religions. (In the new testament, that is) Does it? Luke 19:27: But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. As well as Matthew 10:34: Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. I'm not sure why you want to split the old testament off from the new testament. When we see condemnation of homosexuals by some Christians the Christians are usually making reference to old testament quotes. (Substitute "homosexuals" for children (because some christian sects promote beating children) or women (ditto) to see other appalling behaviour defended by Christians making reference to the old testament. It's a bit odd that I got downvotes for countering someone saying that Christians don't kill members of other religions by giving two examples - one still happening today - of exactly that; exactly Christians murdering people from a different religion purely because they were members of another religion. Christianity has, since the 5th century, had the concept of "Just war". So, even if it's not in the Bible (but it is, there's lots of it in the old testament) it's bene part of the faith for 1500 years.

dghf 11y ago

> Any religion that fundamentally doesn't tolerate the existence of other religions and calls its followers to slaughter those who don't convert is "bad religion". Islam is a "bad religion". Well, if that's what Islam calls its followers to do, it's a good job most of those followers don't pay any attention. Even Iran permits Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians to worship within its borders: they are subject to discrimination and harassment, but not forced to convert to Islam under pain of death.

cygx 11y ago
You're aware what happens to apostates in Iran? Also note that there are special allowances made for people of the Book, so Jews and Christians are not quite as bad off as others, theologically speaking.
- dghf 11y ago
  Yes, I'm aware of the penalties for apostasy in Iran, and that the toleration shown to Jews and Christians is not extended to other faiths (it would seem the Bahá'í get a particularly rough time of it). But the comment I was replying to made a blanket statement that Islam calls for the slaughter and forced conversion of those of other religions, when the facts simply don't bear that out. Yes, some Muslim individuals and groups do hold to such an extreme interpretation of Islam; and media reports do suggest that most religiously inspired killings are committed by Muslims. But most Muslims don't hold such a stance, and most Muslim countries do allow at least some measure of religious toleration -- even a theocracy like Iran. The most notable exception, of course, is the West's ally Saudi Arabia.
  - cygx 11y ago
    Take the data from the 2013 Pew poll, which theoretically represents about 1 billion muslims. One of the questions was about support for the death penalty for apostasy. The report doesn't come with a global average, but you can go to the annex, add some census data and do the math yourself. You'll end up with a number of ~40%. The idea that all muslims are out to kill infidels is of course ridiculous hyperbole. Nevertheless, I consider the number I just quoted worryingly high.
    - dghf 11y ago
      I agree with you.

mercurial 11y ago

> Any religion that fundamentally doesn't tolerate the existence of other religions and calls its followers to slaughter those who don't convert is "bad religion". Islam is a "bad religion". You don't seem to know much about Islam. Let me leave this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya You can argue that it is discrimination, but if you consider the status of Islam and Judaism during the Middle Ages and the Renaissance in Europe, you would think Christianity is a "bad religion". It is certainly true that in several areas, Islam has been hijacked by violent fundamentalists, but it does not make Islam, by nature, incompatible with other faiths.

viraptor 11y ago
Well, he may not know much about Islam. I don't either. But even the page you linked quotes: "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "Jesus will come again, and at that time will (among other things) abolish jizya, will "perish all religions except Islam"" Which I would translate to simple words as: slaughter those who are different, unless they pay you. If they do, whoever is accepted as Jesus can slaughter them later anyway. In modern world that's protection racket. PS, While it sounds harsh, that's how I understand it. If that's not the right idea, please do explain it better.
- mercurial 11y ago
  The point is that this system, while penalizing non-muslims, allowed a mostly peaceful coexistence between different belief systems in the Islamic world, thus demonstrating by example that the notion of Islam not being compatible with other religions is wrong. On the other hand, the tolerance track record of, say, the Catholic Church was fairly dismal until its influence over politics became dramatically curtailed.
  - viraptor 11y ago
    Honestly, I don't think I can accept that as a "peaceful" solution. Same as mafia can't be described as peaceful when asking for money not to destroy your business. Simple test - any other religion with the same rule wouldn't be able to coexist peacefully. It's just luck that we have only one.

seren 11y ago

Five hundred years ago, Christianity was as bad (see reformation, st bartholomew's day massacre). Things are much better now. Has "Christianity" changed that much ? The core of the faith is still the same. In my opinion, what has changed is rather all the "other factors" : i.e. when you are literate, well-fed, do not feel oppressed or unjustly treated you are less likely to hack your neighbor to death. Does that make Christianity a good or bad religion ? Or Christianity now is good while it was bad before ? I understand what you are saying, but I think I am interpreting events differently. One last point, if you have a look on the last few hundreds years in Europe, you will find, and I probably miss a few religious wars : - catholics vs Cathars and various heretical movement - catholics vs protestants - christians vs jews And as the ideology changed: - monarchists vs republicans - marxists vs fascists etc ad nauseam. I do think the "Us vs Them" mentality is a constant of the human experience, and with or without religion of any sort, we will find new ways to be divided (see hooligans, is there something more stupid that dying for your team ?). And I believe that the debate around Islam is just another epiphenomena that will be replaced by something else in 50 or 100 years.

DanBC 11y ago

> Any religion that fundamentally doesn't tolerate the existence of other religions and calls its followers to slaughter those who don't convert is "bad religion" Christianity is a bad religion. See the genocide of Bosnian muslims by Serb christians during the Bosnian genocide. (1995 approx) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_in_the_Bosnian_War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_in_the_Bosnian... Christianity is a bad religion. See the murder of muslims by Christians in Central African Republic. (2014, ongoing) http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/10/central-african-republic-christian-militias-revenge http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/10/central-african... I'm interested in how you're going to contort this to say that these genocides of non-Christians by Christians is somehow different to the massacres you've mentioned.

viraptor 11y ago
> Christianity is a bad religion. Yes, it is. But I don't think it actually calls for killing people practising other religions. (In the new testament, that is) Does it?
- DanBC 11y ago
  > But I don't think it actually calls for killing people practising other religions. (In the new testament, that is) Does it? Luke 19:27: But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. As well as Matthew 10:34: Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. I'm not sure why you want to split the old testament off from the new testament. When we see condemnation of homosexuals by some Christians the Christians are usually making reference to old testament quotes. (Substitute "homosexuals" for children (because some christian sects promote beating children) or women (ditto) to see other appalling behaviour defended by Christians making reference to the old testament. It's a bit odd that I got downvotes for countering someone saying that Christians don't kill members of other religions by giving two examples - one still happening today - of exactly that; exactly Christians murdering people from a different religion purely because they were members of another religion. Christianity has, since the 5th century, had the concept of "Just war". So, even if it's not in the Bible (but it is, there's lots of it in the old testament) it's bene part of the faith for 1500 years.