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As a Dutch person I was under the impression that the Dutch society is less hierarchical than the American society. Perhaps somebody who has worked in both coun

by jules 11y ago

As a Dutch person I was under the impression that the Dutch society is less hierarchical than the American society. Perhaps somebody who has worked in both countries can shed some light on it? I don't think you can compare the US to Europe as a whole either, the workplace dynamic in southern Italy is completely different than in Norway.

mercer 11y ago
My experience is that the Dutch are among the most 'anarchic' people I know. Everyone has an opinion on everything, and bosses try to just be 'one of the guys', and avoid exerting their authority overtly, as it's likely to backfire. Obviously this doesn't apply to all jobs, but I've experienced it a lot. Americans, but to a lesser degree people from other nationalities too, tend to be much more authoritarian and are less inclined to hide the hierarchies. I've experienced Dutch bosses struggle with 'being bosses' in Germany, as their 'flat' approach confused their employees. I've also had German bosses try to be 'one of the guys' in Holland, but not quite pulling it off (to sometimes hilarious effect).
- leap_ahead 11y ago
  I find this all fascinating that resonates well with me. I used to work in Germany but found them too formal and official in both working and personal relationships. Perhaps I should have tried it in the Netherlands.
  - mercer 11y ago
    Oh yeah. After three years I learned to appreciate the Germans to an extent, but I could never shake the feeling that, as a 'group', they're a bit like the boring, responsible, often humorless older sibling to the Dutch. Both 'groups' have their own pros and cons though, to be fair. The Dutch can be horribly rude and argumentative...
    - leap_ahead 11y ago
      >> The Dutch can be horribly rude and argumentative... As a Russian, so can I. It can be a useful trait under circumstances, but I generally try to keep it in control. If I get an idea to work in Europe again, I'll pay closer attention to the Dutch opportunities. It's important for the people to "click" on a cross-cultural level in order to work well as a team, and I'm afraid I didn't click nearly enough back in Germany. Anyway, no culture is perfect. We're supposed to learn from each other and work on our bad sides as recognized in others and by others.
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
      - mercer 11y ago
        In my experience the Dutch get along pretty well with Russians. The main sources of 'conflict' I've noticed usually have to do with the fact that the Dutch like to rub their 'liberalness' in other people's faces, and many Russians I've met tend to be a bit more conservative/traditional in their values. That said, my experience is also that it's more bark than bite. We love arguing and we love telling others our views unasked, but in practice we tend to be pretty, uh, pragmatic about our beliefs. We're essentially a country of merchants/salesmen, we have been for a long time, and getting into real arguments over beliefs is not good for business. It's something I both love and hate about our culture. (This is generalizing, of course, but I've been shocked to find out more and more how strong a 'culture' can be, even on a national level.)
teekert 11y ago
My dutch manager has a nice anecdote about how he worked in France and got in trouble when he walked to the labs and talked to the analysts there to get an idea of a project. The Project leader felt extremely bypassed and pissed. In Holland, if you would be pissed you would be considered a dick. Surely if your project members can't be trusted to know things about their project and to be positive about you, you should be fired. In my company our group leader is judged by all employees every year and we openly discuss what we don't like about his management style. He earns a lot of respect by listening and changing or defending why he doesn't change. The best managers find a perfect balance between competitive behavior, ego, humbleness and the ability to delegate and trust employees. Yes, the silicon valley eagerness is rewarded and encouraged but you really won't get anywhere if you are a dick. Guess that would make a dutch Steve Jobs impossible. Perhaps it is why we don't have a silicon valley equivalent. Nations under dictators are effective but they are only nice places to be when she/he is benevolent.
- s73v3r 11y ago
  I can understand why the Project leader felt slighted. It's their job to know the status of the project and to present that. If someone comes in and bypasses them, you're kinda saying that they're not needed.
  - teekert 11y ago
    He just wanted to get a feel for the problems of the project and the people. What lives in the project, what are the people like. I guess your reaction illustrates my point nicely I don't even consider this "bypassing". Why not feel proud of your project members? To feel bypassed is saying your are the preferred person for all communication, surely anyone can decide for themselves who they want to talk to. Would you feel afraid they say bad things? Then you are not a good leader. If you are a good leader your team makes you look good. That's how I'd see it. If someone talks to your team he probably has a reason, why even think anything about it?

by jules 11y ago

mercer 11y ago

My experience is that the Dutch are among the most 'anarchic' people I know. Everyone has an opinion on everything, and bosses try to just be 'one of the guys', and avoid exerting their authority overtly, as it's likely to backfire. Obviously this doesn't apply to all jobs, but I've experienced it a lot. Americans, but to a lesser degree people from other nationalities too, tend to be much more authoritarian and are less inclined to hide the hierarchies. I've experienced Dutch bosses struggle with 'being bosses' in Germany, as their 'flat' approach confused their employees. I've also had German bosses try to be 'one of the guys' in Holland, but not quite pulling it off (to sometimes hilarious effect).

leap_ahead 11y ago
I find this all fascinating that resonates well with me. I used to work in Germany but found them too formal and official in both working and personal relationships. Perhaps I should have tried it in the Netherlands.
- mercer 11y ago
  Oh yeah. After three years I learned to appreciate the Germans to an extent, but I could never shake the feeling that, as a 'group', they're a bit like the boring, responsible, often humorless older sibling to the Dutch. Both 'groups' have their own pros and cons though, to be fair. The Dutch can be horribly rude and argumentative...
  - leap_ahead 11y ago
    >> The Dutch can be horribly rude and argumentative... As a Russian, so can I. It can be a useful trait under circumstances, but I generally try to keep it in control. If I get an idea to work in Europe again, I'll pay closer attention to the Dutch opportunities. It's important for the people to "click" on a cross-cultural level in order to work well as a team, and I'm afraid I didn't click nearly enough back in Germany. Anyway, no culture is perfect. We're supposed to learn from each other and work on our bad sides as recognized in others and by others.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - mercer 11y ago
      In my experience the Dutch get along pretty well with Russians. The main sources of 'conflict' I've noticed usually have to do with the fact that the Dutch like to rub their 'liberalness' in other people's faces, and many Russians I've met tend to be a bit more conservative/traditional in their values. That said, my experience is also that it's more bark than bite. We love arguing and we love telling others our views unasked, but in practice we tend to be pretty, uh, pragmatic about our beliefs. We're essentially a country of merchants/salesmen, we have been for a long time, and getting into real arguments over beliefs is not good for business. It's something I both love and hate about our culture. (This is generalizing, of course, but I've been shocked to find out more and more how strong a 'culture' can be, even on a national level.)

teekert 11y ago

My dutch manager has a nice anecdote about how he worked in France and got in trouble when he walked to the labs and talked to the analysts there to get an idea of a project. The Project leader felt extremely bypassed and pissed. In Holland, if you would be pissed you would be considered a dick. Surely if your project members can't be trusted to know things about their project and to be positive about you, you should be fired. In my company our group leader is judged by all employees every year and we openly discuss what we don't like about his management style. He earns a lot of respect by listening and changing or defending why he doesn't change. The best managers find a perfect balance between competitive behavior, ego, humbleness and the ability to delegate and trust employees. Yes, the silicon valley eagerness is rewarded and encouraged but you really won't get anywhere if you are a dick. Guess that would make a dutch Steve Jobs impossible. Perhaps it is why we don't have a silicon valley equivalent. Nations under dictators are effective but they are only nice places to be when she/he is benevolent.

s73v3r 11y ago
I can understand why the Project leader felt slighted. It's their job to know the status of the project and to present that. If someone comes in and bypasses them, you're kinda saying that they're not needed.
- teekert 11y ago
  He just wanted to get a feel for the problems of the project and the people. What lives in the project, what are the people like. I guess your reaction illustrates my point nicely I don't even consider this "bypassing". Why not feel proud of your project members? To feel bypassed is saying your are the preferred person for all communication, surely anyone can decide for themselves who they want to talk to. Would you feel afraid they say bad things? Then you are not a good leader. If you are a good leader your team makes you look good. That's how I'd see it. If someone talks to your team he probably has a reason, why even think anything about it?