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>Yes, but different religions inspire different propensities towards violence in their hosts. It is more complex than that. There is no on one side "good relig

by seren 11y ago

>Yes, but different religions inspire different propensities towards violence in their hosts. It is more complex than that. There is no on one side "good religions" and on the other side "bad religions". It is rather a combination of social and economics factors (education, poverty, exposure to other cultures, frustration, feeling of injustice (real or imagined), corruption, etc) The debate does not really interest me, but since you mentioned Mormon particularly, you are probably familiar with the following story : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre

chroma 11y ago
I totally agree that Mormonism used to be a rather terrible and violent religion. But please notice that you had to go back over 150 years to find such an atrocity committed by the Mormons. Their religion has changed drastically since then, thanks to collisions with secularism. Christianity used to be more barbarous as well, but centuries of progress have tamed it significantly. Let me give a more obvious example of religion's role in encouraging/discouraging violence: Jainism. The core contributor to Jainism, Mahavira, said, "All breathing, existing, living, sentient creatures should not be slain, nor treated with violence, nor abused, nor tormented, nor driven away." It is really hard to be violent as a Jain. Jains protest by fasting. In fact, Gandhi got many of his ideas about nonviolent resistance from the Jains. Also, you didn't answer my question. Do you honestly think there is any religion besides Islam that would raise such security concerns if mocked in a Broadway musical? I agree that culture and other factors matter, but the doctrines of religions are quite different. Some of those doctrines call for violence more than others. The sooner we admit that, the sooner we can try to fix the problem.
- seren 11y ago
  > Do you honestly think there is any religion besides Islam that would raise such security concerns if mocked in a Broadway musical? In 2015, I can't think of any other. But I don't think there is something fundamentally and radically different with Islam as its core. In some country, you could not mock the official religion or the (despotic) head of state either. I used to believe that some religions were exempt of violence, but since I learned about "Buddhism fundamentalism" I am much more circumspect.
makeitsuckless 11y ago
That's just the usual faux complexity and "fair and balanced" smokescreen. Any religion that fundamentally doesn't tolerate the existence of other religions and calls its followers to slaughter those who don't convert is "bad religion". Islam is a "bad religion". There is a fundamental difference between the violent excesses of an ideology, an ideology than almost inevitably leads to violent excesses and an ideology the prescribes violence. The Islam is all the way at the extreme end of that spectrum.
- dghf 11y ago
  > Any religion that fundamentally doesn't tolerate the existence of other religions and calls its followers to slaughter those who don't convert is "bad religion". Islam is a "bad religion". Well, if that's what Islam calls its followers to do, it's a good job most of those followers don't pay any attention. Even Iran permits Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians to worship within its borders: they are subject to discrimination and harassment, but not forced to convert to Islam under pain of death.
  - cygx 11y ago
    You're aware what happens to apostates in Iran? Also note that there are special allowances made for people of the Book, so Jews and Christians are not quite as bad off as others, theologically speaking.
    - dghf 11y ago
      Yes, I'm aware of the penalties for apostasy in Iran, and that the toleration shown to Jews and Christians is not extended to other faiths (it would seem the Bahá'í get a particularly rough time of it). But the comment I was replying to made a blanket statement that Islam calls for the slaughter and forced conversion of those of other religions, when the facts simply don't bear that out. Yes, some Muslim individuals and groups do hold to such an extreme interpretation of Islam; and media reports do suggest that most religiously inspired killings are committed by Muslims. But most Muslims don't hold such a stance, and most Muslim countries do allow at least some measure of religious toleration -- even a theocracy like Iran. The most notable exception, of course, is the West's ally Saudi Arabia.
cygx 11y ago
There is no on one side "good religions" and on the other side "bad religions". But not all religious doctrine is equally toxic. It is rather a combination of social and economics factors (education, poverty, exposure to other cultures, frustration, feeling of injustice (real or imagined), corruption, etc) But ideology is part of the package. Totalitarianism has to be opposed, whether its doctrine is based on religion (eg Salafism) or secular concepts (eg Nazism).

by seren 11y ago

chroma 11y ago

I totally agree that Mormonism used to be a rather terrible and violent religion. But please notice that you had to go back over 150 years to find such an atrocity committed by the Mormons. Their religion has changed drastically since then, thanks to collisions with secularism. Christianity used to be more barbarous as well, but centuries of progress have tamed it significantly. Let me give a more obvious example of religion's role in encouraging/discouraging violence: Jainism. The core contributor to Jainism, Mahavira, said, "All breathing, existing, living, sentient creatures should not be slain, nor treated with violence, nor abused, nor tormented, nor driven away." It is really hard to be violent as a Jain. Jains protest by fasting. In fact, Gandhi got many of his ideas about nonviolent resistance from the Jains. Also, you didn't answer my question. Do you honestly think there is any religion besides Islam that would raise such security concerns if mocked in a Broadway musical? I agree that culture and other factors matter, but the doctrines of religions are quite different. Some of those doctrines call for violence more than others. The sooner we admit that, the sooner we can try to fix the problem.

seren 11y ago
> Do you honestly think there is any religion besides Islam that would raise such security concerns if mocked in a Broadway musical? In 2015, I can't think of any other. But I don't think there is something fundamentally and radically different with Islam as its core. In some country, you could not mock the official religion or the (despotic) head of state either. I used to believe that some religions were exempt of violence, but since I learned about "Buddhism fundamentalism" I am much more circumspect.

makeitsuckless 11y ago

That's just the usual faux complexity and "fair and balanced" smokescreen. Any religion that fundamentally doesn't tolerate the existence of other religions and calls its followers to slaughter those who don't convert is "bad religion". Islam is a "bad religion". There is a fundamental difference between the violent excesses of an ideology, an ideology than almost inevitably leads to violent excesses and an ideology the prescribes violence. The Islam is all the way at the extreme end of that spectrum.

dghf 11y ago
> Any religion that fundamentally doesn't tolerate the existence of other religions and calls its followers to slaughter those who don't convert is "bad religion". Islam is a "bad religion". Well, if that's what Islam calls its followers to do, it's a good job most of those followers don't pay any attention. Even Iran permits Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians to worship within its borders: they are subject to discrimination and harassment, but not forced to convert to Islam under pain of death.
- cygx 11y ago
  You're aware what happens to apostates in Iran? Also note that there are special allowances made for people of the Book, so Jews and Christians are not quite as bad off as others, theologically speaking.
  - dghf 11y ago
    Yes, I'm aware of the penalties for apostasy in Iran, and that the toleration shown to Jews and Christians is not extended to other faiths (it would seem the Bahá'í get a particularly rough time of it). But the comment I was replying to made a blanket statement that Islam calls for the slaughter and forced conversion of those of other religions, when the facts simply don't bear that out. Yes, some Muslim individuals and groups do hold to such an extreme interpretation of Islam; and media reports do suggest that most religiously inspired killings are committed by Muslims. But most Muslims don't hold such a stance, and most Muslim countries do allow at least some measure of religious toleration -- even a theocracy like Iran. The most notable exception, of course, is the West's ally Saudi Arabia.

cygx 11y ago

There is no on one side "good religions" and on the other side "bad religions". But not all religious doctrine is equally toxic. It is rather a combination of social and economics factors (education, poverty, exposure to other cultures, frustration, feeling of injustice (real or imagined), corruption, etc) But ideology is part of the package. Totalitarianism has to be opposed, whether its doctrine is based on religion (eg Salafism) or secular concepts (eg Nazism).