7 ms·

The American professional mindset is that you are hired for a role, and a good employee does what it takes to do that role. There are different rules (in Calif

by furyg3 11y ago

The American professional mindset is that you are hired for a role, and a good employee does what it takes to do that role. There are different rules (in California) for professionals who plan their own work and/or supervise others versus those in a service role, but the details are pretty meaningless... the effect is: if you're a professional you do what it takes to make the project succeed and make a good impression. Combine this with another American trait, optimism, and you end up with over-ambitions projects that genuinely underestimate the effort and underestimate the resources, meetings that last twice as long because the first half was spent eating bagels and talking about something unrelated (oops!), and problems where everyone sincerely believes "we'll be able to solve later", and you end up with mad-dash, please delay your vacation, oh can you come in on Saturday, overtime. I also forgot to mention that you get bonus points for being the first one at work and that last one to leave, even if you're taking an awful lot of reddit breaks. To Europeans it seems insane, to Americans it's funny but normal. The inverse also applies, it has taken me a long time to adjust to a detailed level of planning based on FTEs, make project plans that include unforeseen absences, and actually truly worry early on in the project.

gadders 11y ago
Your comment above also applies to the UK, I would suggest. Your probably need to add "Continental" in front of "European".
- currysoup 11y ago
  Maybe down south, but I've never experienced anything like that up North.
  - thrownaway122 11y ago
    Definitely down south. Not as bad as the US but very similar. Compared to the rest of Europe it sucks!
- mcmullen 11y ago
  That may be the case in the City (I have images of interns jumping from City skyscrapers in the back of my mind...) but not in the general labour market in my experience. Generally speaking, unless you've committed to something, screwed up, or contracting (£$£$), then you generally leave at the end of your shift or working day. However, I am genuinely intrigued why you think this - could you elaborate? Maybe I'm overworking without even knowing it.
  - gadders 11y ago
    I do work in an investment bank, but it's not a case of interns throwing themselves out of windows. It's more a case of "I'm a professional, and I gave my word I would complete X by a certain date, and if all that takes is a couple of extra hours then I will stay and complete it, rather than be unreliable."
jedrek 11y ago
That's a very... nice way of putting it. One thing I've come across is employers who talk about having "unregulated hours" - you can come and go as you please as long as the work is done! Quickly, you discover that there's always work to be done. If you're done with client work and it's only 3pm, we have some internal stuff you could be working on. What if client work comes in at 4pm? Guess you need to stay later to get it done.
- morganvachon 11y ago
  This is what inevitably ends up happening to me. Granted, I do get to go home at 5pm most days, but right now as the busy season is winding down, I find I have more time for duties I have had to let slide. Oh wait, nope, the big boss feels that those duties aren't as important as this pile of stuff he was going to do, but gosh darn it, he needs more time to browse Youtube! So I end up with a stack of BS that's above my pay grade while he fucks off in his office all day. Mean time, my actual duties stay on the back burner, and my other boss rides my ass about that and doesn't want to hear about what I've been forced to do by our big boss. And they wonder why I'm looking for another job.
mtbcoder 11y ago
I'm not quite sure most Americans find it 'funny' but rather do these things more so out of fear. Fear of job loss, fear of missed advancements, fear of missing out, etc. This also seems to explain why Americans as a whole take so little vacation time even when they are entitled to take time off [1]. [1] http://www.alternet.org/corporate-accountability-and-workplace/why-are-americans-so-afraid-take-vacation http://www.alternet.org/corporate-accountability-and-workpla...
- Cthulhu_ 11y ago
  This is just it - worker protection in the Netherlands is much better than in the US or UK; an employer can't just fire someone, for one. An employee cannot work for more than X hours a week - and if it's requested to work overtime or odd hours, the employer has to pay for it (up to 200% if working Sundays). And if there weren't laws and worker inspections and whatnot in place already, people would go on strike - and that usually has a major effect, like nationally crippled transportation (of any sort) or rapid accumulation of trash. Which TBF makes me a bit depressed about the Americans. Have all the Walmart employees unionize and go on strike - there's nothing the management can do, not even enforce their 'you cannot unionize' contract thing, if everyone goes against them. Some people are afraid pushovers TBF. And the employers slowly turned them into that, by making them poor.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - gpvos 11y ago
    In the Netherlands, strikes are actually rare when compared to surrounding countries, although there has been a small uptick recently.
  - derf_ 11y ago
    > there's nothing the management can do On the contrary. Walmart's policy to date has been to simply close the store: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0210-13.htm http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0210-13.htm They got in trouble for that one, so now they at least pretend to have other excuses: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/union-walmart-shut-5-stores-over-labor-activism/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/union-walmart-shut-5-stores-over...
deleted 11y ago
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- jules 11y ago
  As a Dutch person I was under the impression that the Dutch society is less hierarchical than the American society. Perhaps somebody who has worked in both countries can shed some light on it? I don't think you can compare the US to Europe as a whole either, the workplace dynamic in southern Italy is completely different than in Norway.
  - mercer 11y ago
    My experience is that the Dutch are among the most 'anarchic' people I know. Everyone has an opinion on everything, and bosses try to just be 'one of the guys', and avoid exerting their authority overtly, as it's likely to backfire. Obviously this doesn't apply to all jobs, but I've experienced it a lot. Americans, but to a lesser degree people from other nationalities too, tend to be much more authoritarian and are less inclined to hide the hierarchies. I've experienced Dutch bosses struggle with 'being bosses' in Germany, as their 'flat' approach confused their employees. I've also had German bosses try to be 'one of the guys' in Holland, but not quite pulling it off (to sometimes hilarious effect).
    - leap_ahead 11y ago
      I find this all fascinating that resonates well with me. I used to work in Germany but found them too formal and official in both working and personal relationships. Perhaps I should have tried it in the Netherlands.
      - mercer 11y ago
        Oh yeah. After three years I learned to appreciate the Germans to an extent, but I could never shake the feeling that, as a 'group', they're a bit like the boring, responsible, often humorless older sibling to the Dutch. Both 'groups' have their own pros and cons though, to be fair. The Dutch can be horribly rude and argumentative...
solve 11y ago
Those first two American workplace traits won't work well unless you include a third American workplace trait: They're far less subservient to their bosses, if they have bosses at all. Not like how the project is being done? You're expected as an employee to just take control and do it the way you think is better, asking for forgiveness later if needed. Many top US tech companies truly have no direct bosses at all now, e.g. some kind of peer reviews system combined with whatever measurable results if available, replacing bosses. I suspect that this totally flat approach is only possible for very top-level best employee-quality companies though, as a single bad behaving person can really screw up the peer-review system. Side note: In the US there's a strong split between "professional behavior" and "personal behavior". In (most?) of Europe that split in personality seems to be nearly non-existent, or even frowned upon. Each person is expected to have only 1 personality. So don't get confused that there's just 1 behavior culture in the US, there's at least 2 that every professional has.
cubano 11y ago
Well, I'm American and it sure seems insane to me, so I choose not to participate, and that's that. It really is that simple. Don't believe it is the companies forcing workers to do it as it is my experience that most, but not all of course, American men would rather be "working" then dealing with child raising.
- rokhayakebe 11y ago
  I choose not to participate, and that's that. You know what, that's it. People complain all day long, but in the end it is just a choice. Nobody is being held at gun point and being asked to work long hours. Instead people make financial choices that they must now assume by working under terrible conditions, then they go home to complain about it.
  - seanp2k2 11y ago
    While somewhat true, it's pretty bad that you basically have to just roll over and accept it if you want to own a house in an area not in economic crisis. You can live as frugally as you want, but a half-million-dollar mortgage sucks up a lot of income. I've been seriously considering getting a really really really nice few-year-old RV (one of the 50' bus ones with expanding sides) as my home in order to opt-out of the housing stupidity and apartment renting game. It'd be nice to be able to own my home after just a few years paying the equivalent of what I currently pay for Bay Area rent. I'd still have to pay e.g. National Parks for staying the night, but I'd much much rather have my money go to them vs the slim land owners and apartment places here.
    - rokhayakebe 11y ago
      Agreed. As for the second point, I would strongly recommend against an RV as your primary home. It is very likely to negatively affect your social life and could get into the way of a lasting romantic relationship. Perhaps (and this is just a guess) you would be better off employing your skills and time to make more instead of attempting to save more.
  - s73v3r 11y ago

by furyg3 11y ago

gadders 11y ago

Your comment above also applies to the UK, I would suggest. Your probably need to add "Continental" in front of "European".

currysoup 11y ago
Maybe down south, but I've never experienced anything like that up North.
- thrownaway122 11y ago
  Definitely down south. Not as bad as the US but very similar. Compared to the rest of Europe it sucks!
mcmullen 11y ago
That may be the case in the City (I have images of interns jumping from City skyscrapers in the back of my mind...) but not in the general labour market in my experience. Generally speaking, unless you've committed to something, screwed up, or contracting (£$£$), then you generally leave at the end of your shift or working day. However, I am genuinely intrigued why you think this - could you elaborate? Maybe I'm overworking without even knowing it.
- gadders 11y ago
  I do work in an investment bank, but it's not a case of interns throwing themselves out of windows. It's more a case of "I'm a professional, and I gave my word I would complete X by a certain date, and if all that takes is a couple of extra hours then I will stay and complete it, rather than be unreliable."

jedrek 11y ago

That's a very... nice way of putting it. One thing I've come across is employers who talk about having "unregulated hours" - you can come and go as you please as long as the work is done! Quickly, you discover that there's always work to be done. If you're done with client work and it's only 3pm, we have some internal stuff you could be working on. What if client work comes in at 4pm? Guess you need to stay later to get it done.

morganvachon 11y ago
This is what inevitably ends up happening to me. Granted, I do get to go home at 5pm most days, but right now as the busy season is winding down, I find I have more time for duties I have had to let slide. Oh wait, nope, the big boss feels that those duties aren't as important as this pile of stuff he was going to do, but gosh darn it, he needs more time to browse Youtube! So I end up with a stack of BS that's above my pay grade while he fucks off in his office all day. Mean time, my actual duties stay on the back burner, and my other boss rides my ass about that and doesn't want to hear about what I've been forced to do by our big boss. And they wonder why I'm looking for another job.

mtbcoder 11y ago

I'm not quite sure most Americans find it 'funny' but rather do these things more so out of fear. Fear of job loss, fear of missed advancements, fear of missing out, etc. This also seems to explain why Americans as a whole take so little vacation time even when they are entitled to take time off [1]. [1] http://www.alternet.org/corporate-accountability-and-workplace/why-are-americans-so-afraid-take-vacation http://www.alternet.org/corporate-accountability-and-workpla...

Cthulhu_ 11y ago
This is just it - worker protection in the Netherlands is much better than in the US or UK; an employer can't just fire someone, for one. An employee cannot work for more than X hours a week - and if it's requested to work overtime or odd hours, the employer has to pay for it (up to 200% if working Sundays). And if there weren't laws and worker inspections and whatnot in place already, people would go on strike - and that usually has a major effect, like nationally crippled transportation (of any sort) or rapid accumulation of trash. Which TBF makes me a bit depressed about the Americans. Have all the Walmart employees unionize and go on strike - there's nothing the management can do, not even enforce their 'you cannot unionize' contract thing, if everyone goes against them. Some people are afraid pushovers TBF. And the employers slowly turned them into that, by making them poor.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- gpvos 11y ago
  In the Netherlands, strikes are actually rare when compared to surrounding countries, although there has been a small uptick recently.
- derf_ 11y ago
  > there's nothing the management can do On the contrary. Walmart's policy to date has been to simply close the store: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0210-13.htm http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0210-13.htm They got in trouble for that one, so now they at least pretend to have other excuses: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/union-walmart-shut-5-stores-over-labor-activism/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/union-walmart-shut-5-stores-over...

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

jules 11y ago
As a Dutch person I was under the impression that the Dutch society is less hierarchical than the American society. Perhaps somebody who has worked in both countries can shed some light on it? I don't think you can compare the US to Europe as a whole either, the workplace dynamic in southern Italy is completely different than in Norway.
- mercer 11y ago
  My experience is that the Dutch are among the most 'anarchic' people I know. Everyone has an opinion on everything, and bosses try to just be 'one of the guys', and avoid exerting their authority overtly, as it's likely to backfire. Obviously this doesn't apply to all jobs, but I've experienced it a lot. Americans, but to a lesser degree people from other nationalities too, tend to be much more authoritarian and are less inclined to hide the hierarchies. I've experienced Dutch bosses struggle with 'being bosses' in Germany, as their 'flat' approach confused their employees. I've also had German bosses try to be 'one of the guys' in Holland, but not quite pulling it off (to sometimes hilarious effect).
  - leap_ahead 11y ago
    I find this all fascinating that resonates well with me. I used to work in Germany but found them too formal and official in both working and personal relationships. Perhaps I should have tried it in the Netherlands.
    - mercer 11y ago
      Oh yeah. After three years I learned to appreciate the Germans to an extent, but I could never shake the feeling that, as a 'group', they're a bit like the boring, responsible, often humorless older sibling to the Dutch. Both 'groups' have their own pros and cons though, to be fair. The Dutch can be horribly rude and argumentative...

solve 11y ago

Those first two American workplace traits won't work well unless you include a third American workplace trait: They're far less subservient to their bosses, if they have bosses at all. Not like how the project is being done? You're expected as an employee to just take control and do it the way you think is better, asking for forgiveness later if needed. Many top US tech companies truly have no direct bosses at all now, e.g. some kind of peer reviews system combined with whatever measurable results if available, replacing bosses. I suspect that this totally flat approach is only possible for very top-level best employee-quality companies though, as a single bad behaving person can really screw up the peer-review system. Side note: In the US there's a strong split between "professional behavior" and "personal behavior". In (most?) of Europe that split in personality seems to be nearly non-existent, or even frowned upon. Each person is expected to have only 1 personality. So don't get confused that there's just 1 behavior culture in the US, there's at least 2 that every professional has.

cubano 11y ago

Well, I'm American and it sure seems insane to me, so I choose not to participate, and that's that. It really is that simple. Don't believe it is the companies forcing workers to do it as it is my experience that most, but not all of course, American men would rather be "working" then dealing with child raising.

rokhayakebe 11y ago
I choose not to participate, and that's that. You know what, that's it. People complain all day long, but in the end it is just a choice. Nobody is being held at gun point and being asked to work long hours. Instead people make financial choices that they must now assume by working under terrible conditions, then they go home to complain about it.
- seanp2k2 11y ago
  While somewhat true, it's pretty bad that you basically have to just roll over and accept it if you want to own a house in an area not in economic crisis. You can live as frugally as you want, but a half-million-dollar mortgage sucks up a lot of income. I've been seriously considering getting a really really really nice few-year-old RV (one of the 50' bus ones with expanding sides) as my home in order to opt-out of the housing stupidity and apartment renting game. It'd be nice to be able to own my home after just a few years paying the equivalent of what I currently pay for Bay Area rent. I'd still have to pay e.g. National Parks for staying the night, but I'd much much rather have my money go to them vs the slim land owners and apartment places here.
  - rokhayakebe 11y ago
    Agreed. As for the second point, I would strongly recommend against an RV as your primary home. It is very likely to negatively affect your social life and could get into the way of a lasting romantic relationship. Perhaps (and this is just a guess) you would be better off employing your skills and time to make more instead of attempting to save more.
- s73v3r 11y ago