8 ms·

Here's a mirror of the original version of this blog post. I'd like point out a couple of quotes. https://web.archive.org/web/20150211134734/http://blog.element

by orik 11y ago

Here's a mirror of the original version of this blog post. I'd like point out a couple of quotes. https://web.archive.org/web/20150211134734/http://blog.elementaryos.org/post/110645528530/payments https://web.archive.org/web/20150211134734/http://blog.eleme... >We want users to understand that they’re pretty much cheating the system when they choose not to pay for software. Elementary's self-important attitude has and continues to completely baffle me. People joke about ElementaryOS being just Ubuntu + Pantheon Shell, because it is just Ubuntu + Pantheon Shell. Elementry's Dev team doesn't pay for Ubuntu, they don't pay for the Kernel or GNU Tools, and yet they made the argument that the end user is 'cheating the system' when they download a prebuilt iso of a collection of free software for free. If Elementary wanted to take the high ground, they'd introduce a Humble Bundle style payment system split between the various foundations they're building off of. Maybe the defaults would look something like 30% to the Linux Foundation, 20% to the FSF, 20% to Debian, 20% to Ubuntu, and 10% to themselves.

ikurei 11y ago
I don't disagree with what you said, but I'd like to comment on a few points. >We want users to understand that they’re pretty much cheating the system when they choose not to pay for software. (Auch, reading that hurt; still...) There they didn't say users are cheating for not paying them, but for not paying in general. Also consider that The Linux Foundation, the FSF, Canonical... all have way bigger communities and visibiliy, and relations with big companies and other ways of obtaining economical support. Elementary depends only on their reduced user base. > it is just Ubuntu + Pantheon Shell. Well, yes. But they still put a lot of work into it. It rest on the shoulders of the GTK and Gnome giants, but they have still put a lot of work. Describing them that way isn't, imho, fair at all. Apart from the Pantheon's surface, they've been working on libraries as Contracts and Granite GTK. I've no idea if they're complicated behemoths or ridiculously thin work-of-an-afternoon additions to GNU/Linux. I think I would be fine with it if they had just mentioned "hey, our hard work depends on the hard work of this fellas, consider donating to them too!". Specially if really they are not making any profit as of yet, I don't think it's that bad to ask for the funding to continue your work from the people who enjoy it. PD: I'm writing this from Elementary, which I use on two computers. In this one I ended up going back to Awesome WM, but I keep Pantheon on the other. I really like it, even if it isn't an incredible distance away from Xubuntu. Although I'm not particularly wealthy, I'll consider donating a few bucks to Elementary. It is not the first OSS project I donate to, but I'll also consider donating to it's upstream. PD2: I was partly playing devil's advocate. Even as an Elementary user, I didn't particularly like this post.
- hueving 11y ago
  It's their fault for screwing up their business model so much that they have to resort to attacking their users. There is little to defend here. I have never seen a project succeed that tries to trick or guilt you into giving money. Making users feel like shit is bad UX.
ekianjo 11y ago
> Elementry's Dev team doesn't pay for Ubuntu, they don't pay for the Kernel or GNU Tools Yeah, totally agree - no matter how much they do, their work is close to nil compared to what was accomplished because of GNU tools, Linux kernel work and Ubuntu specific improvements made over the past xx years before ElementaryOS. It's like they are only in for the money, which does not sit very well with this kind of communities.
- SunShiranui 11y ago
  While the amount of work those upstream projects have contributed is indeed monumental, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss elementary OS' contribution to the free software operating system landscape. I think their work in providing a good UX for GNU\Linux operating systems is admirable and it's a very important step to really make something most would be happy to use.
  - ekianjo 11y ago
    > I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss .. contribution I am not dismissing their work, I just find the attitude a little snobbish. Just like if you gift-wrap something and you take credit for everything that's inside. The attitude is just wrong.
  - onli 11y ago
    Why do you think that? Elementary is not the first distribution to focus on user experience and usability. Especially Ubuntu, on which they build their system, had that goal in mind, it's even in the name. For me personally, I did not see much more in Elementary than an OSX clone.
    - SunShiranui 11y ago
      It's not the first, yes, but in my opinion they're the best at it. Either way, it doesn't hurt having more than one organization working on good Linux UX.
- krat0sprakhar 11y ago
kuschku 11y ago
With the shit they’ve been doing, someone should just fork all their packages, and provide them as a nice set of packages for standard Ubuntu. Maybe we could even see an eBuntu (like Kubuntu, Xubuntu) with 15.10?
SunShiranui 11y ago
I don't think the fact that elementary OS builds upon Ubuntu (and others upstream projects) has any relevance to whether or not one should pay for elementary OS. Those upstream developers have each made a decision regarding their licensing and financing models, so there's no obligaton for elementary to pay them, especially considering how elementary is a much smaller reality than other open source software. With that said, according to elementary a good part of the donations they receive goes towards bug bounties, which are not limited to elementary OS itself but are also assigned to upstream projects. Without getting hung up on phrases like "cheating the system", which is admittedly poor wording, I do agree with the base premise of their blog post: open source development has to be sustainable and they have chosen to ask the users directly for a contribution. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
- deong 11y ago
  I think the attitude exemplified by phrasing like "cheating the system" is the sole reason why anyone has a problem with them at all. If we ignore the apparent entitlement, then sure, it's fine.
- Nursie 11y ago
  "we feel that an entire operating system that has taken years of development and refinement is worth funding." I think this is also misleading, as they haven't produced an entire operating system so far as I can tell. They're entitled to charge what they like. Unfortunately for them, everyone else is entitled to redistribute for nothing.
rgbrenner 11y ago
Elementry's Dev team doesn't pay for Ubuntu, they don't pay for the Kernel or GNU Tools This attitude is why we don't see Linux startups -- just volunteer efforts, run on peoples spare time that they eventually get burnt out on and give up. They are asking for $10. They aren't asking for a huge sum of money. $10 could be a very reasonable amount of money for the effort they've put into it. Yes, it's built on free software... but when I (and many other people too) build their start up on free software and charge money.. we don't ask how much of that is going to Nginx, Linux, etc... we say, they're charging for the time/effort required to build that service. And just like how many startups would be forced to charge higher prices if they had to redevelop nginx, etc... elementaryOS wouldn't be $10 if they had to duplicate all of that work.
- icebraining 11y ago
  orik isn't criticizing them for charging, though, but for calling some users "cheaters" for doing essentially the same they are doing - getting Free Software for free.
- pjmlp 11y ago
  This is why after my open source phase as university student back in the mid-90's, I ended up doing mostly commercial software. Unless one hits jackpot a la RedHat, or is doing consulting/teaching/web paywalls, open source seldom pays bills.
  - couchand 11y ago
    This is a false dichotomy. Some of the best open source work has been done by folks who do pull in a salary from a commercial venture. A few of those are designated open-source positions, but the vast majority are just people who contribute on the side. And I hope you can appreciate how demeaning it is to call your time contributing to open source a "phase".
    - pjmlp 11y ago
      What I call a phase was the idea that I would be able to live just from open source no matter which type of business area. I still work with open source tools and do contribute occasionally with bug reports, bug fixes, advocacy and money. Just don't believe any longer that all types of business are possible with open source. Many just don't go along with it, at least for those that want to their their bills.
anon3_ 11y ago
> Here's a mirror of the original version of this blog post. They rescinded it. No reason to make them dwell in misery forever. > Elementry's Dev team doesn't pay for Ubuntu, So? > they don't pay for the Kernel or GNU Tools, And? People get paid to work on both. Some people do it pro bono. They don't expect to be paid. > 'cheating the system' when they download a prebuilt iso of a collection of free software for free. Totally not true. There is a lot of refinement in the UX. If it's so easy, why is the distribution so special? Why don't you just whip up a bash script and send them out of business? Even if they just combined Open Source works, they have every right to flip the combination (which takes time and skill) at a value. If you package something for me that saves my 10 developers a day each of config time - I just saved thousands of dollars.
aledujke 11y ago
I used elementary in the past and I was very happy with it. I did not want to donate but I did want to support them by buying their ware. Stickers and shirts. Problems is... for over 3 years now their store only supports US customers. A year ago they said they are working on it and still have not fixed it. http://www.reddit.com/r/elementaryos/comments/23v9o9/elementary_os_doesnt_have_an_official_forum_and/ch1lmtg http://www.reddit.com/r/elementaryos/comments/23v9o9/element... Yet they want you to donate.
- anon3_ 11y ago
  > I used elementary in the past and I was very happy with it. Are you aware that they just may want to be able to have a part or full time job doing software? What do you expect them to have? A trust fund from their parents and they just give you free stuff? > Stickers and shirts. Serious? The gap of money they'd keep to feed themselves from that - plus the extra labor (distraction from improving the code). I think you mean well, but here and other commenters seem to view GPL more as a right to pirate legally. Who is the real freeloader, the guy who is very happy with [software]" and can't pay without foaming at the mouth, or someone who actually developed a created work in the first place*. The insensitivity and entitlement is mind-boggling, from my perspective as a coder.
  - aledujke 11y ago
    >Are you aware that they just may want to be able to have a part or full time job doing software? >Who is the real freeloader, the guy who is very happy with [software]" and can't pay without foaming at the mouth, or someone who actually developed a created work in the first place*. I am, like people from KDE or Gnome or whichever WM out there. You still don't see them being smug about donations. Oh and elementary guys don't even want to call it a donation. They've built their distribution on top of GPL software and they think you should pay for what they did, not donate. Quote from the comments section from that article: ======================== Cassidy James Mod Andrew Sauder • 3 months ago We never use the word "donate." That's kind of a the core idea; we're not saying, "here's this free thing, donate if you want." We're saying, "We've poured time and money into making this thing, and we think it has value." You get to choose how much you value it, or, if you can't afford it, that's okay too. ======================== If anyone is a pirate (oh the irony of calling someone who uses gpl a pirate) here it's them. >Serious? The gap of money they'd keep to feed themselves from that - plus the extra labor (distraction from improving the code). Then why are they even selling the wares? You make it sound like they are losing money on that stuff as if the developer is packing my shirt. If you read the comment that I linked you would see that the shop is web team's responsibility. >commenters seem to view GPL more as a right to pirate legally. I think that if Richard Stallman were to read this it would make him sad.
simula67 11y ago
> Elementry's Dev team doesn't pay for Ubuntu, they don't pay for the Kernel or GNU Tools, Neither Canonical, the kernel developers nor FSF demands you pay them money for Ubuntu, Linux or GNU Tools. Nor do they oppose making money from software. Even their own software. > and yet they made the argument that the end user is 'cheating the system' when they download a prebuilt iso of a collection of free software for free. If they want to be paid money for free ( as in freedom ) software they have the right to demand it. I see no moral problem with this. They may be delusional, but not immoral.

by orik 11y ago

ikurei 11y ago

I don't disagree with what you said, but I'd like to comment on a few points. >We want users to understand that they’re pretty much cheating the system when they choose not to pay for software. (Auch, reading that hurt; still...) There they didn't say users are cheating for not paying them, but for not paying in general. Also consider that The Linux Foundation, the FSF, Canonical... all have way bigger communities and visibiliy, and relations with big companies and other ways of obtaining economical support. Elementary depends only on their reduced user base. > it is just Ubuntu + Pantheon Shell. Well, yes. But they still put a lot of work into it. It rest on the shoulders of the GTK and Gnome giants, but they have still put a lot of work. Describing them that way isn't, imho, fair at all. Apart from the Pantheon's surface, they've been working on libraries as Contracts and Granite GTK. I've no idea if they're complicated behemoths or ridiculously thin work-of-an-afternoon additions to GNU/Linux. I think I would be fine with it if they had just mentioned "hey, our hard work depends on the hard work of this fellas, consider donating to them too!". Specially if really they are not making any profit as of yet, I don't think it's that bad to ask for the funding to continue your work from the people who enjoy it. PD: I'm writing this from Elementary, which I use on two computers. In this one I ended up going back to Awesome WM, but I keep Pantheon on the other. I really like it, even if it isn't an incredible distance away from Xubuntu. Although I'm not particularly wealthy, I'll consider donating a few bucks to Elementary. It is not the first OSS project I donate to, but I'll also consider donating to it's upstream. PD2: I was partly playing devil's advocate. Even as an Elementary user, I didn't particularly like this post.

hueving 11y ago
It's their fault for screwing up their business model so much that they have to resort to attacking their users. There is little to defend here. I have never seen a project succeed that tries to trick or guilt you into giving money. Making users feel like shit is bad UX.

ekianjo 11y ago

> Elementry's Dev team doesn't pay for Ubuntu, they don't pay for the Kernel or GNU Tools Yeah, totally agree - no matter how much they do, their work is close to nil compared to what was accomplished because of GNU tools, Linux kernel work and Ubuntu specific improvements made over the past xx years before ElementaryOS. It's like they are only in for the money, which does not sit very well with this kind of communities.

SunShiranui 11y ago
While the amount of work those upstream projects have contributed is indeed monumental, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss elementary OS' contribution to the free software operating system landscape. I think their work in providing a good UX for GNU\Linux operating systems is admirable and it's a very important step to really make something most would be happy to use.
- ekianjo 11y ago
  > I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss .. contribution I am not dismissing their work, I just find the attitude a little snobbish. Just like if you gift-wrap something and you take credit for everything that's inside. The attitude is just wrong.
- onli 11y ago
  Why do you think that? Elementary is not the first distribution to focus on user experience and usability. Especially Ubuntu, on which they build their system, had that goal in mind, it's even in the name. For me personally, I did not see much more in Elementary than an OSX clone.
  - SunShiranui 11y ago
    It's not the first, yes, but in my opinion they're the best at it. Either way, it doesn't hurt having more than one organization working on good Linux UX.
krat0sprakhar 11y ago

kuschku 11y ago

With the shit they’ve been doing, someone should just fork all their packages, and provide them as a nice set of packages for standard Ubuntu. Maybe we could even see an eBuntu (like Kubuntu, Xubuntu) with 15.10?

SunShiranui 11y ago

I don't think the fact that elementary OS builds upon Ubuntu (and others upstream projects) has any relevance to whether or not one should pay for elementary OS. Those upstream developers have each made a decision regarding their licensing and financing models, so there's no obligaton for elementary to pay them, especially considering how elementary is a much smaller reality than other open source software. With that said, according to elementary a good part of the donations they receive goes towards bug bounties, which are not limited to elementary OS itself but are also assigned to upstream projects. Without getting hung up on phrases like "cheating the system", which is admittedly poor wording, I do agree with the base premise of their blog post: open source development has to be sustainable and they have chosen to ask the users directly for a contribution. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

deong 11y ago
I think the attitude exemplified by phrasing like "cheating the system" is the sole reason why anyone has a problem with them at all. If we ignore the apparent entitlement, then sure, it's fine.
Nursie 11y ago
"we feel that an entire operating system that has taken years of development and refinement is worth funding." I think this is also misleading, as they haven't produced an entire operating system so far as I can tell. They're entitled to charge what they like. Unfortunately for them, everyone else is entitled to redistribute for nothing.

rgbrenner 11y ago

Elementry's Dev team doesn't pay for Ubuntu, they don't pay for the Kernel or GNU Tools This attitude is why we don't see Linux startups -- just volunteer efforts, run on peoples spare time that they eventually get burnt out on and give up. They are asking for $10. They aren't asking for a huge sum of money. $10 could be a very reasonable amount of money for the effort they've put into it. Yes, it's built on free software... but when I (and many other people too) build their start up on free software and charge money.. we don't ask how much of that is going to Nginx, Linux, etc... we say, they're charging for the time/effort required to build that service. And just like how many startups would be forced to charge higher prices if they had to redevelop nginx, etc... elementaryOS wouldn't be $10 if they had to duplicate all of that work.

icebraining 11y ago
orik isn't criticizing them for charging, though, but for calling some users "cheaters" for doing essentially the same they are doing - getting Free Software for free.
pjmlp 11y ago
This is why after my open source phase as university student back in the mid-90's, I ended up doing mostly commercial software. Unless one hits jackpot a la RedHat, or is doing consulting/teaching/web paywalls, open source seldom pays bills.
- couchand 11y ago
  This is a false dichotomy. Some of the best open source work has been done by folks who do pull in a salary from a commercial venture. A few of those are designated open-source positions, but the vast majority are just people who contribute on the side. And I hope you can appreciate how demeaning it is to call your time contributing to open source a "phase".
  - pjmlp 11y ago
    What I call a phase was the idea that I would be able to live just from open source no matter which type of business area. I still work with open source tools and do contribute occasionally with bug reports, bug fixes, advocacy and money. Just don't believe any longer that all types of business are possible with open source. Many just don't go along with it, at least for those that want to their their bills.

anon3_ 11y ago

> Here's a mirror of the original version of this blog post. They rescinded it. No reason to make them dwell in misery forever. > Elementry's Dev team doesn't pay for Ubuntu, So? > they don't pay for the Kernel or GNU Tools, And? People get paid to work on both. Some people do it pro bono. They don't expect to be paid. > 'cheating the system' when they download a prebuilt iso of a collection of free software for free. Totally not true. There is a lot of refinement in the UX. If it's so easy, why is the distribution so special? Why don't you just whip up a bash script and send them out of business? Even if they just combined Open Source works, they have every right to flip the combination (which takes time and skill) at a value. If you package something for me that saves my 10 developers a day each of config time - I just saved thousands of dollars.

aledujke 11y ago

I used elementary in the past and I was very happy with it. I did not want to donate but I did want to support them by buying their ware. Stickers and shirts. Problems is... for over 3 years now their store only supports US customers. A year ago they said they are working on it and still have not fixed it. http://www.reddit.com/r/elementaryos/comments/23v9o9/elementary_os_doesnt_have_an_official_forum_and/ch1lmtg http://www.reddit.com/r/elementaryos/comments/23v9o9/element... Yet they want you to donate.

anon3_ 11y ago
> I used elementary in the past and I was very happy with it. Are you aware that they just may want to be able to have a part or full time job doing software? What do you expect them to have? A trust fund from their parents and they just give you free stuff? > Stickers and shirts. Serious? The gap of money they'd keep to feed themselves from that - plus the extra labor (distraction from improving the code). I think you mean well, but here and other commenters seem to view GPL more as a right to pirate legally. Who is the real freeloader, the guy who is very happy with [software]" and can't pay without foaming at the mouth, or someone who actually developed a created work in the first place*. The insensitivity and entitlement is mind-boggling, from my perspective as a coder.
- aledujke 11y ago
  >Are you aware that they just may want to be able to have a part or full time job doing software? >Who is the real freeloader, the guy who is very happy with [software]" and can't pay without foaming at the mouth, or someone who actually developed a created work in the first place*. I am, like people from KDE or Gnome or whichever WM out there. You still don't see them being smug about donations. Oh and elementary guys don't even want to call it a donation. They've built their distribution on top of GPL software and they think you should pay for what they did, not donate. Quote from the comments section from that article: ======================== Cassidy James Mod Andrew Sauder • 3 months ago We never use the word "donate." That's kind of a the core idea; we're not saying, "here's this free thing, donate if you want." We're saying, "We've poured time and money into making this thing, and we think it has value." You get to choose how much you value it, or, if you can't afford it, that's okay too. ======================== If anyone is a pirate (oh the irony of calling someone who uses gpl a pirate) here it's them. >Serious? The gap of money they'd keep to feed themselves from that - plus the extra labor (distraction from improving the code). Then why are they even selling the wares? You make it sound like they are losing money on that stuff as if the developer is packing my shirt. If you read the comment that I linked you would see that the shop is web team's responsibility. >commenters seem to view GPL more as a right to pirate legally. I think that if Richard Stallman were to read this it would make him sad.

simula67 11y ago

> Elementry's Dev team doesn't pay for Ubuntu, they don't pay for the Kernel or GNU Tools, Neither Canonical, the kernel developers nor FSF demands you pay them money for Ubuntu, Linux or GNU Tools. Nor do they oppose making money from software. Even their own software. > and yet they made the argument that the end user is 'cheating the system' when they download a prebuilt iso of a collection of free software for free. If they want to be paid money for free ( as in freedom ) software they have the right to demand it. I see no moral problem with this. They may be delusional, but not immoral.