10 ms·

Hey, I know something about this! I moved from silicon valley to NL about 8 years ago. First off there are two ways to spin this: 1) women are less emancipate

by furyg3 11y ago

Hey, I know something about this! I moved from silicon valley to NL about 8 years ago. First off there are two ways to spin this: 1) women are less emancipated in NL because they participate less in the workplace or 2) women are more emancipated because they are able to choose to participate less in the workplace. I first thought #1 was true, but I'm seeing a lot of new fathers taking advantage of Dutch part-time rules by taking a day a week off to participate in child care. So maybe instead of the measure of emancipation being women's values aligning with traditionally 'male' ones, maybe it's that male values are aligning with traditionally 'female' ones. Subjectively I can also ay that the Dutch workplaces I've had the pleasure to experience are both more healthy and more 'efficient', and my previous experience has been exclusively in hard-working silicon valley. Plans are important, meetings are avoided unless necessary (and have agendas!), and there is a focus on getting stuff done so that people can leave at six and be with their families. Overtime is a sign that something has gone terribly wrong, and nobody bothers you while you're on your vacation. This culture allows part-time work to be an option... that is, a 32/36/40-hour contract is actually meaningful. At my previous jobs in the US I wouldn't even think about reducing my hours... a 32 vs 40 hour contract is pointless if you're expected to work 50-60 hours a week, better to take as much money as you can.

thisjepisje 11y ago
"and have agendas!" Are you saying meetings in SV don't have agendas? Gasp
- DamnYuppie 11y ago
  LOL, too many meetings, to little direction, too many asshats in attendance. That is the general description of meetings I am in, which unfortunately, is frequently.
acqq 11y ago
Thanks. I'm from Europe, therefore really needing some explanations (to the opposite direction of the title subject of explaining European logic to the non-European readers): > Overtime is a sign that something has gone terribly wrong Why are there environments which don't think that the "overtime is a sign that something has gone terribly wrong?" How come that workers don't try to stand to their rights? Specifically: > you're expected to work 50-60 hours a week How come, if you sign the contract for e.g. 40 hours? The only thing workers are selling are their work hours, why do they accept to waste 25-50% of that? At least Scott Adams gets it: http://dilbert.com/strip/2011-12-19 http://dilbert.com/strip/2011-12-19
- furyg3 11y ago
  The American professional mindset is that you are hired for a role, and a good employee does what it takes to do that role. There are different rules (in California) for professionals who plan their own work and/or supervise others versus those in a service role, but the details are pretty meaningless... the effect is: if you're a professional you do what it takes to make the project succeed and make a good impression. Combine this with another American trait, optimism, and you end up with over-ambitions projects that genuinely underestimate the effort and underestimate the resources, meetings that last twice as long because the first half was spent eating bagels and talking about something unrelated (oops!), and problems where everyone sincerely believes "we'll be able to solve later", and you end up with mad-dash, please delay your vacation, oh can you come in on Saturday, overtime. I also forgot to mention that you get bonus points for being the first one at work and that last one to leave, even if you're taking an awful lot of reddit breaks. To Europeans it seems insane, to Americans it's funny but normal. The inverse also applies, it has taken me a long time to adjust to a detailed level of planning based on FTEs, make project plans that include unforeseen absences, and actually truly worry early on in the project.
  - gadders 11y ago
    Your comment above also applies to the UK, I would suggest. Your probably need to add "Continental" in front of "European".
    - currysoup 11y ago
      Maybe down south, but I've never experienced anything like that up North.
      - thrownaway122 11y ago
        Definitely down south. Not as bad as the US but very similar. Compared to the rest of Europe it sucks!
    - mcmullen 11y ago
mattlutze 11y ago
> At my previous jobs in the US I wouldn't even think about reducing my hours... a 32 vs 40 hour contract is pointless if you're expected to work 50-60 hours a week, better to take as much money as you can. The difference between less-than-full-time and full-time employment is the issue here. If you're a "full time" employee, depending on your local cultural values, you stay until the job is done, within reason. If you're on less than full time, in, I would wager, the vast majority of cases, the position is very closely regulated time-wise, ensuring the employee works their hours and very little more, if any.
branchless 11y ago
Both parents working is a trap. We used to need one parent working, then they changed mortgage lending to incorporate two incomes and surprise: land prices doubled. Now two people work instead of one and they are no better off. Who is the second parent working for? The banks. Who pays? The kids. The financialisation of land is a disaster, we are not more free we are enslaved by debt.
- morley 11y ago
  Do you have a source to confirm that the change to mortgage lending caused land prices to double? It seems like the opposite is equally plausible.
  - branchless 11y ago
    Yes: http://www.amazon.com/Progress-Poverty-Industrial-Depressions-Increase/dp/0911312587 http://www.amazon.com/Progress-Poverty-Industrial-Depression... Prices are related to available credit. Wages (and rent) have hardly budged but land prices have rocketed.
    - throwaway1979 11y ago
      This is going off on a tangent but I think you are spot on. It isn't just two incomes fueling the credit increase but also the insanely low interest rates. I don't think female workforce participation will/should go down, but I wonder if interest rates will ever go up to reasonable levels and pop the real-estate bubble (e.g. in Canada)? I have friends with crappy income situations buying houses for 600K+. I've been trying to hold off for as long as possible but we would really like to plant our roots somewhere (poor immigrant to the Western world so owning land in my new homeland was a dream from childhood). In places like Toronto and Vancouver, buying a home for people of modest means seems financial suicide (perhaps only if you have taken Econ courses). We live in messed up times.
    - branchless 11y ago
      can't reply to the throwaway dude as HN threading is nuts so replying here. Low interest rates allows banks to more efficiently financialise housing (that is to say price housing at the optimal point to extract as much economic rent as possible). You get to spread your repayments over a long time and end up paying lots of lovely interest. Higher rates (and therefore more wage inflation) quickly erodes the debt whilst putting a ceiling on the asset price bounded by wages at the time you sign the mortgage deeds. The west has been utterly captured by banks. We've seen politicians walk rates down to zero to allow the asset price bubble to continue to extract value from labour. This is the issue. It's not off-topic for this - all families are working two jobs for the banks. ps also dude as you are in Canada (so am I): http://www.greaterfool.ca/ http://www.greaterfool.ca/ Vancouver is nuts. Calgary: timber

by furyg3 11y ago

thisjepisje 11y ago

"and have agendas!" Are you saying meetings in SV don't have agendas? Gasp

DamnYuppie 11y ago
LOL, too many meetings, to little direction, too many asshats in attendance. That is the general description of meetings I am in, which unfortunately, is frequently.

acqq 11y ago

Thanks. I'm from Europe, therefore really needing some explanations (to the opposite direction of the title subject of explaining European logic to the non-European readers): > Overtime is a sign that something has gone terribly wrong Why are there environments which don't think that the "overtime is a sign that something has gone terribly wrong?" How come that workers don't try to stand to their rights? Specifically: > you're expected to work 50-60 hours a week How come, if you sign the contract for e.g. 40 hours? The only thing workers are selling are their work hours, why do they accept to waste 25-50% of that? At least Scott Adams gets it: http://dilbert.com/strip/2011-12-19 http://dilbert.com/strip/2011-12-19

furyg3 11y ago
The American professional mindset is that you are hired for a role, and a good employee does what it takes to do that role. There are different rules (in California) for professionals who plan their own work and/or supervise others versus those in a service role, but the details are pretty meaningless... the effect is: if you're a professional you do what it takes to make the project succeed and make a good impression. Combine this with another American trait, optimism, and you end up with over-ambitions projects that genuinely underestimate the effort and underestimate the resources, meetings that last twice as long because the first half was spent eating bagels and talking about something unrelated (oops!), and problems where everyone sincerely believes "we'll be able to solve later", and you end up with mad-dash, please delay your vacation, oh can you come in on Saturday, overtime. I also forgot to mention that you get bonus points for being the first one at work and that last one to leave, even if you're taking an awful lot of reddit breaks. To Europeans it seems insane, to Americans it's funny but normal. The inverse also applies, it has taken me a long time to adjust to a detailed level of planning based on FTEs, make project plans that include unforeseen absences, and actually truly worry early on in the project.
- gadders 11y ago
  Your comment above also applies to the UK, I would suggest. Your probably need to add "Continental" in front of "European".
  - currysoup 11y ago
    Maybe down south, but I've never experienced anything like that up North.
    - thrownaway122 11y ago
      Definitely down south. Not as bad as the US but very similar. Compared to the rest of Europe it sucks!
  - mcmullen 11y ago

mattlutze 11y ago

> At my previous jobs in the US I wouldn't even think about reducing my hours... a 32 vs 40 hour contract is pointless if you're expected to work 50-60 hours a week, better to take as much money as you can. The difference between less-than-full-time and full-time employment is the issue here. If you're a "full time" employee, depending on your local cultural values, you stay until the job is done, within reason. If you're on less than full time, in, I would wager, the vast majority of cases, the position is very closely regulated time-wise, ensuring the employee works their hours and very little more, if any.

branchless 11y ago

Both parents working is a trap. We used to need one parent working, then they changed mortgage lending to incorporate two incomes and surprise: land prices doubled. Now two people work instead of one and they are no better off. Who is the second parent working for? The banks. Who pays? The kids. The financialisation of land is a disaster, we are not more free we are enslaved by debt.

morley 11y ago
Do you have a source to confirm that the change to mortgage lending caused land prices to double? It seems like the opposite is equally plausible.
- branchless 11y ago
  Yes: http://www.amazon.com/Progress-Poverty-Industrial-Depressions-Increase/dp/0911312587 http://www.amazon.com/Progress-Poverty-Industrial-Depression... Prices are related to available credit. Wages (and rent) have hardly budged but land prices have rocketed.
  - throwaway1979 11y ago
    This is going off on a tangent but I think you are spot on. It isn't just two incomes fueling the credit increase but also the insanely low interest rates. I don't think female workforce participation will/should go down, but I wonder if interest rates will ever go up to reasonable levels and pop the real-estate bubble (e.g. in Canada)? I have friends with crappy income situations buying houses for 600K+. I've been trying to hold off for as long as possible but we would really like to plant our roots somewhere (poor immigrant to the Western world so owning land in my new homeland was a dream from childhood). In places like Toronto and Vancouver, buying a home for people of modest means seems financial suicide (perhaps only if you have taken Econ courses). We live in messed up times.
  - branchless 11y ago
    can't reply to the throwaway dude as HN threading is nuts so replying here. Low interest rates allows banks to more efficiently financialise housing (that is to say price housing at the optimal point to extract as much economic rent as possible). You get to spread your repayments over a long time and end up paying lots of lovely interest. Higher rates (and therefore more wage inflation) quickly erodes the debt whilst putting a ceiling on the asset price bounded by wages at the time you sign the mortgage deeds. The west has been utterly captured by banks. We've seen politicians walk rates down to zero to allow the asset price bubble to continue to extract value from labour. This is the issue. It's not off-topic for this - all families are working two jobs for the banks. ps also dude as you are in Canada (so am I): http://www.greaterfool.ca/ http://www.greaterfool.ca/ Vancouver is nuts. Calgary: timber