5 ms·

You are being downvoted (and probably me to follow) because you said something 'unpopular' in a context of a quite lefty post. To be honest I think the British

by harel 11y ago

You are being downvoted (and probably me to follow) because you said something 'unpopular' in a context of a quite lefty post. To be honest I think the British public voted for the better candidate out of the existing options. They were not presented with stellar choices, so they had to make do. Online privacy, I believe was not why most people voted or did not vote Tory. Yes, apps like Aral's (which good on him, I support it), have a chance of being affected. Maybe. Its just as likely that it won't be. Who knows? The whole world is snooping and listening so it might as well be happening wherever he goes. However, had Labour won you'd see the exact same post created by someone else, leaving the country because Labour had won, stating his/hers reasons and telling the public to be ashamed of themselves. This is how democracy works. half the people will be unhappy.

dijit 11y ago
Labour is increasingly right wing, but you're wrong about Tory's being a good option. Tories now have majority rule in the house of commons for 5 years, which means they can push whatever they want as long as they're aligned without being reigned in. Last time this happened the gap between rich and poor deepened massively, benefits were slashed, our rail system was privatised and Libraries closed- oh, and Miners went on strike due to terrible conditions. 38% is not a Majority vote, in my mind, and leveraging young voters because they "don't know better" and have very little consideration to other issues that do not affect young fit workers is a very American thing to do. honestly, growing up poor has taught me to respect socialist ideals such as public free healthcare and benefits for the unable. - But there was a time in my teen years where even I would have voted conservative because "these issues" wouldn't have affected me as a young worker- but they will one day and people should be quick to recognise that. Tories scare the life out of me, they have a history of being self-serving. :\ and you're right about the choices not being stellar. I'd suggest creating another party- but we have so many!
- harel 11y ago
  There is never a "majority" vote. It would take the majority actually going out to vote. There is a silver lining there as well for the Tory-disappointed. Keep in mind that most likely a lot of the votes that gave Cameroon his win, came from people who might have voted UKIP and changed their mind in the last minute. I'd like to believe the Conservative of today are not those from the 80s and that today, all parties except the extremists, start from the centre and lean from there. Edit: let me drop this here: The majority vote that gave the win was actually a lot smaller than people think. The deciding factor was in the hands of about 1000 people: http://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2015/05/majority-2015.html http://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2015/05/majority-2015.html
- harel 11y ago
  By the way, I don't' see myself as left or right wing. I look at an issue, and sometimes the left has a good solution, sometimes the right does. What we need is not a new party - we need a new way of governance which is issue based, not 'time' based. Maybe one day technology will be advanced and easy enough to allow safe referendums from your mobile device. Continuous referendums...
  - dcabrera1436 11y ago
    Continuous referendums... mind blown. Anyone working on this?
    - jordanthoms 11y ago
      It's actually got it's own problems though. Everyone will vote yes to lower taxes, but also vote yes to spending more on schools, welfare, etc. Referendums are best if fiscally neutral, but that makes them hard to use for lots of issues.
      - leppr 11y ago
        I doubt the equilibrium would be perfect. Even if the balance tips only 2 or 3 percent towards less tax / more spending, it would still represent the citizens opinion better than the decision making models of modern day democracies do.
    - davegardner 11y ago
      In Australia there is a political party that is along those lines - http://www.senatoronline.org.au/ http://www.senatoronline.org.au/. They don't have any seats in parliament though.
    - MCRed 11y ago
      This is what libertarians would like. We would also like that the "consent of the governed" be unanimous. Or at least very high. Just because %60 of the population, for instance, wants to ban gay marriage, they should't be able to. IT should take %95 or something like that. We no longer have the multi-week latency between our hometown and washington. Votes can be instantaneous-- and in the 1990s MIT made software that would allow anyone to audit an election and prove it was legitimate, and prove that their vote was counted, electronically. Everyone could do a recount in a few minutes. Things like the blockchain might even be a better way to do the same thing. So we no longer need "representatives" that don't even represent us-- because they are picked by the two party heads in a system that keeps any other party out, structurally with "election rules"-- not even getting into the shenanigans that keep them out of debates, and off the ballots in many cases. Frankly, I think our election system is deeply compromised (whoever controls the software controls the outcome) and representational government is no longer necessary.
- youngtaff 11y ago
  The miners didn't go on strike due to terrible conditions… the miners went on strike to try to prevent the closure of their pits which were unprofitable at the time. The miners strike is always blamed on Thatcher but Scargill has a lot to answer for - previous strike ballots had rejected strike action so the union decided to call a strike without a ballot. I think Thatcher took the wrong approach but given with the way the unions in the 70's had tried to bring down governments I don't think she had much choice but to face them down. Thatcher's government failure was to repair the communities after pit closures but encourage new business etc to set up there. Scargill's hubris and ego led the miners on a journey of suffering, remember this is the man who was still claiming the union had an obligation to house him long after he had retired. Also don't forget the striking miners killed a man by throwing a concrete block through the windscreen of the truck(?) he was driving. The miners strike has become a popular myth of how Thatcher destroyed the workers but the NUM has a lot to answer for.
PythonicAlpha 11y ago
I don't know, how bad Labour is, but what I know is, that this kind of spying on everybody reminds me very much to that what the former DDR did, what was greatly criticized in Western Germany, after the fall of the wall. With one distinction: What they did, was a joke compared to what is going on today in many western countries. The other thing is, that in my opinion, what ruined the country most in the long term was the reign of Miss Thatcher. The total sale of the state and the rise of the banks stripped the country from any other options (all other industry is in ruins today or sold to foreign (e.g. German) corporations) -- GB must give the banks a free hand, or crash. And when they do, we all in Europe loose (also GB). I also read a statement from a Economist, who largely criticized Camerons idea of further reducing the states spending (as much I understood, by privatization). This makes the country even more vulnerable to crisis and I also see some very good examples in GB, how privatization can make public services worse.
- throwaway344 11y ago
  Miss Thatcher? Not Mrs? Or Ms?
  - PythonicAlpha 11y ago
    I am sorry for my bad English! Mrs, I guess!
- dash2 11y ago
  What they did, was a joke compared to what is going on today in many western countries. The Stasi had a unit whose job was to drive its victims mad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zersetzung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zersetzung). Their collaborators numbered in the hundreds of thousands (http://www.ted.com/talks/hubertus_knabe_the_dark_secrets_of_a_surveillance_state/transcript http://www.ted.com/talks/hubertus_knabe_the_dark_secrets_of_...). Be careful with those comparisons.
  - shredprez 11y ago
    There may well be similar agencies operating clandestinely in regimes today. It probably wouldn't be hard to methodically push critics (or communities) just enough into the twilight zone to kill their credibility with targeted information campaigns. Pummel them with careful half-truths and convincing sources, then routinely expose their drifting worldview. Total speculation of course, but I would be surprised if our governments didn't spend at least some of their time and energy sabotaging critics and hacking the public consciousness. Order is hard to maintain in a sprawling democracy.
alextgordon 11y ago
The comment is satire, in case you didn't get it. Not even David Cameron himself is that on-message. Obviously the UK can't "run out of money", the Tories missed their own immigration target by a factor of 10, and joining the Euro was always a Conservative ambition (remember Black Wednesday?).

by harel 11y ago

dijit 11y ago

Labour is increasingly right wing, but you're wrong about Tory's being a good option. Tories now have majority rule in the house of commons for 5 years, which means they can push whatever they want as long as they're aligned without being reigned in. Last time this happened the gap between rich and poor deepened massively, benefits were slashed, our rail system was privatised and Libraries closed- oh, and Miners went on strike due to terrible conditions. 38% is not a Majority vote, in my mind, and leveraging young voters because they "don't know better" and have very little consideration to other issues that do not affect young fit workers is a very American thing to do. honestly, growing up poor has taught me to respect socialist ideals such as public free healthcare and benefits for the unable. - But there was a time in my teen years where even I would have voted conservative because "these issues" wouldn't have affected me as a young worker- but they will one day and people should be quick to recognise that. Tories scare the life out of me, they have a history of being self-serving. :\ and you're right about the choices not being stellar. I'd suggest creating another party- but we have so many!

harel 11y ago
There is never a "majority" vote. It would take the majority actually going out to vote. There is a silver lining there as well for the Tory-disappointed. Keep in mind that most likely a lot of the votes that gave Cameroon his win, came from people who might have voted UKIP and changed their mind in the last minute. I'd like to believe the Conservative of today are not those from the 80s and that today, all parties except the extremists, start from the centre and lean from there. Edit: let me drop this here: The majority vote that gave the win was actually a lot smaller than people think. The deciding factor was in the hands of about 1000 people: http://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2015/05/majority-2015.html http://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2015/05/majority-2015.html
harel 11y ago
By the way, I don't' see myself as left or right wing. I look at an issue, and sometimes the left has a good solution, sometimes the right does. What we need is not a new party - we need a new way of governance which is issue based, not 'time' based. Maybe one day technology will be advanced and easy enough to allow safe referendums from your mobile device. Continuous referendums...
- dcabrera1436 11y ago
  Continuous referendums... mind blown. Anyone working on this?
  - jordanthoms 11y ago
    It's actually got it's own problems though. Everyone will vote yes to lower taxes, but also vote yes to spending more on schools, welfare, etc. Referendums are best if fiscally neutral, but that makes them hard to use for lots of issues.
    - leppr 11y ago
      I doubt the equilibrium would be perfect. Even if the balance tips only 2 or 3 percent towards less tax / more spending, it would still represent the citizens opinion better than the decision making models of modern day democracies do.
  - davegardner 11y ago
    In Australia there is a political party that is along those lines - http://www.senatoronline.org.au/ http://www.senatoronline.org.au/. They don't have any seats in parliament though.
  - MCRed 11y ago
    This is what libertarians would like. We would also like that the "consent of the governed" be unanimous. Or at least very high. Just because %60 of the population, for instance, wants to ban gay marriage, they should't be able to. IT should take %95 or something like that. We no longer have the multi-week latency between our hometown and washington. Votes can be instantaneous-- and in the 1990s MIT made software that would allow anyone to audit an election and prove it was legitimate, and prove that their vote was counted, electronically. Everyone could do a recount in a few minutes. Things like the blockchain might even be a better way to do the same thing. So we no longer need "representatives" that don't even represent us-- because they are picked by the two party heads in a system that keeps any other party out, structurally with "election rules"-- not even getting into the shenanigans that keep them out of debates, and off the ballots in many cases. Frankly, I think our election system is deeply compromised (whoever controls the software controls the outcome) and representational government is no longer necessary.
youngtaff 11y ago
The miners didn't go on strike due to terrible conditions… the miners went on strike to try to prevent the closure of their pits which were unprofitable at the time. The miners strike is always blamed on Thatcher but Scargill has a lot to answer for - previous strike ballots had rejected strike action so the union decided to call a strike without a ballot. I think Thatcher took the wrong approach but given with the way the unions in the 70's had tried to bring down governments I don't think she had much choice but to face them down. Thatcher's government failure was to repair the communities after pit closures but encourage new business etc to set up there. Scargill's hubris and ego led the miners on a journey of suffering, remember this is the man who was still claiming the union had an obligation to house him long after he had retired. Also don't forget the striking miners killed a man by throwing a concrete block through the windscreen of the truck(?) he was driving. The miners strike has become a popular myth of how Thatcher destroyed the workers but the NUM has a lot to answer for.

PythonicAlpha 11y ago

I don't know, how bad Labour is, but what I know is, that this kind of spying on everybody reminds me very much to that what the former DDR did, what was greatly criticized in Western Germany, after the fall of the wall. With one distinction: What they did, was a joke compared to what is going on today in many western countries. The other thing is, that in my opinion, what ruined the country most in the long term was the reign of Miss Thatcher. The total sale of the state and the rise of the banks stripped the country from any other options (all other industry is in ruins today or sold to foreign (e.g. German) corporations) -- GB must give the banks a free hand, or crash. And when they do, we all in Europe loose (also GB). I also read a statement from a Economist, who largely criticized Camerons idea of further reducing the states spending (as much I understood, by privatization). This makes the country even more vulnerable to crisis and I also see some very good examples in GB, how privatization can make public services worse.

throwaway344 11y ago
Miss Thatcher? Not Mrs? Or Ms?
- PythonicAlpha 11y ago
  I am sorry for my bad English! Mrs, I guess!
dash2 11y ago
What they did, was a joke compared to what is going on today in many western countries. The Stasi had a unit whose job was to drive its victims mad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zersetzung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zersetzung). Their collaborators numbered in the hundreds of thousands (http://www.ted.com/talks/hubertus_knabe_the_dark_secrets_of_a_surveillance_state/transcript http://www.ted.com/talks/hubertus_knabe_the_dark_secrets_of_...). Be careful with those comparisons.
- shredprez 11y ago
  There may well be similar agencies operating clandestinely in regimes today. It probably wouldn't be hard to methodically push critics (or communities) just enough into the twilight zone to kill their credibility with targeted information campaigns. Pummel them with careful half-truths and convincing sources, then routinely expose their drifting worldview. Total speculation of course, but I would be surprised if our governments didn't spend at least some of their time and energy sabotaging critics and hacking the public consciousness. Order is hard to maintain in a sprawling democracy.

alextgordon 11y ago

The comment is satire, in case you didn't get it. Not even David Cameron himself is that on-message. Obviously the UK can't "run out of money", the Tories missed their own immigration target by a factor of 10, and joining the Euro was always a Conservative ambition (remember Black Wednesday?).