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>> I get working on big goals, I get working hard. I don't get throwing away everything else. It's not just your life it's the people who need a father and a fr

>> I get working on big goals, I get working hard. I don't get throwing away everything else. It's not just your life it's the people who need a father and a friend. Agreed. The quote which finally got me to realize my family was more important than my job: "When you’re gone would you rather have your gravestone say, ‘He never missed a meeting.’ Or one that said, ‘He was a great father'."

TeMPOraL 12y ago
I agree that family is important and it's especially important to be there for other people, but regarding your quote, to the two gravestone inscriptions above I'd much prefer: "He helped mankind make its first steps on Mars.", or "He helped ensure the world is a good place to live for generations to come.".
- pc86 12y ago
  The question is about whether you'd have it say that or that you were a great father. It's rare to be able to do both, particularly if the company's CEO says having a child is "no excuse" to miss an event. Not a deadline or a board presentation or an earnings report. An event.
  - gclaramunt 12y ago
    Pretty sure the ppl of Nasa/JPL who actually put a man on the moon, worked reasonable hours and almost never missed dinner with family. So, I don't think they're mutually exclusive EDIT: So, everybody was screwed then? I must have mixed anecdotes :)
    - tna 12y ago
      Your statement couldn't be farther from the truth (or you forgot the /sarcasm tag?). Watch "Moon Machines" mini-series (6 episodes), with many interviews of the engineers behind the Apollo program. They were all working crazy hours, many divorced during the project because of work/family imbalance.
    - waterlesscloud 12y ago
      "The room, the hours that we worked were incredible. I don't think anyone ever worked anything less than 10 to 12 hours each day. Saturday was a normal day of work; in fact, that's the way we felt it should be. We were given this impossible dream by President Kennedy, and we were living it. We were doing the kinds of things that engineers would kill for. And as part of this process, we'd go and open up our pay—we were surprised we were getting paid by this thing here. As long as we had enough money to make things meet, that's all we needed. The job was our life, and we lived this literally every day." - NASA Flight Controller Gene Kranz http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tothemoon/kranz.html http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tothemoon/kranz.html
      - TeMPOraL 11y ago
        Gene Kranz is an interesting case here. He had a loving and very supporting wife who would make him new vests for every mission, which became symbolic for the team he worked with. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/gene-kranzs-apollo-vest-9045125/?no-ist http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/gene-kranzs-apollo-ves...
      - harimau 11y ago
        10 - 12 hours a day is pretty typical in the entertainment business. Most tv shows do 12s for an entire year, movies about the same for less, and VFX workers during crunch time (which is near permanent for some) 12 is usually the minimum. Plus your weekends are gone. At least the guys in the Space Program were doing for a far more valuable reason.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - genericuser 11y ago
      I am pretty sure that is completely false, from what I have read of the early space program, it sounds like it had a way of devouring lives. "The Apollo 11 crew calculated they spent 2000 hours in simulators between their selection in January and their flight in July 1969." http://history.nasa.gov/SP-350/ch-8-3.html http://history.nasa.gov/SP-350/ch-8-3.html And the book makes numerous references to others at NASA working long hours too. "Apollo had become intimately interwoven in the fabric of the waking hours of my life and often caused the remaining hours to be fewer than they should have been." http://history.nasa.gov/SP-350/ch-7-1.html http://history.nasa.gov/SP-350/ch-7-1.html "I'd be checking on alertness, especially among men who had been working long hours. Were they fatigued? Were they concentrating on the dials? Was there any unnecessary chit-chat going on?" http://history.nasa.gov/SP-350/ch-6-3.html http://history.nasa.gov/SP-350/ch-6-3.html
      - kamaal 11y ago
        That is approximately 10 hours of simulator work a day, plus other regular work. Agreed that you need work very hard for success. But at what cost? There is a balance. If a person can't be there for their newly born child, one might as well not have a kid at the first place. All of us have been in situations where we had to put our head down and work marathon hours straight for days to get things done. We've also had days when we had nothing to do. We are not bots to clock $x amount of time of time everyday. There is always time to accomodate family and other commitments.
    - TeMPOraL 11y ago
      RE your edit - that's probably part of the reason it took only 12 years after Sputnik to get a man on the moon - because for people working on it this wasn't a job, this was their life. They did it for the goal itself, and not for money.
  - genericuser 12y ago
    We don't really have all the context of the message. For instance what was the event? (The launch of their first rocket might be classified as an even to Musk for all I know) What was the message that was sent to prompt this reply? I mean he starts with 'That is no excuse' so he is clearly referring to an email sent to him and I am trusting about the general content of the email chain. But for all I know this guy just got up and left work when heard his child was being born as opposed to actually taking time off. While this is a completely invented narrative by me, it could be that it was that kind of action that can leave a lot of other people in the lurch is what there was no excuse for. My point is simply that many people are reading things into the quote which do not seem to be explicitly stated, but are being treated as though they are.
  - TeMPOraL 12y ago
    I'd prefer to have it say both, but if I were to chose only one, I'd want Mars/future for everyone. > Not a deadline or a board presentation or an earnings report. An event. As others said, it's not clear what the "event" was and what was the context of the message. I'd be surprised if Musk really turned out to be so inconsiderate as some people assume here.
- iamcurious 12y ago
  I like your phrasing. It prevents being busy for its own sake. I wonder how much work at Space X is "help mankind make its first steps on Mars" and how much work is TPS reports.
  - TeMPOraL 12y ago
    And, were I employed at SpaceX, my commitment would probably vary depending on that distinctions. Reports can wait, so don't you dare tell me to skip a very important family moment. But if I were deep in the critical parts of the path to making humans multiplanetary species, or in Tesla the electrification of transport process, I'd probably consider this more important than any but most special personal events.
- clavalle 12y ago
  Mars will be there in 20 years. Your kids' childhood won't.
  - TeMPOraL 12y ago
    OTOH the future my kid would live in would be better. But honestly though, if I knew I'm doing work I consider that important, I wouldn't decide to have a kid in the first place.
    - clavalle 12y ago
      My uncle did that. Spent his life on eliminating malaria. Good work. Now he's dead and there are no kids in his line that might carry his intellectual legacy or create their own. Human life is short term. Good genes and culture are long term. If everyone capable burned through their 50 or so years attempting to create a better world in such a hurry there'd be few with the capacity to perpetuate that vision or create their own. It is not an either/or proposition. It is worth in in the long term to find balance, not for yourself, but for the future of humanity.
      - TeMPOraL 12y ago
        I'm sorry that your uncle passed away. I wish I could thank him while he was alive for the work he did. You have an interesting point about passing on legacy, but then again there are so many people born every day, that there will be more than enough people to perpetuate the vision if they can learn about it. Having a child furthers memory only temporary. I myself don't know much about my grand-grandparents and have no clue about who their parents were. I doubt many people do. In the end, we all get forgotten, but our work may improve the lives of next generations. > It is not an either/or proposition. It is worth in in the long term to find balance, not for yourself, but for the future of humanity. I strongly agree, and that's how I try to look at it. I don't want to burn out, but I personally don't consider starting a family to be an important goal for me. I respect that it is for many others, and I believe they should be supported. Some people sacrifice themselves for others to have better lives. Some people are the others. And many are in the middle. I don't think any of them are making a bad choice.
- chrisbennet 12y ago
  Neither of those things will matter to people who love you but I suppose it would help a selfish person rationalize loving their jobs more than their family.
  - TeMPOraL 12y ago
    That's kind of the point I'm making. Given a choice, why should I promote few people in my inner circle over hundreds, thousands or more other people? This really bothers me. There's a common mentality that says it's OK to harm countless of strangers in order to support yourself and your family. I think that is selfish.
    - chrisbennet 11y ago
      Somehow we've gone from "Elon cares more about his business than he does about his employees - to the extreme." To: "Would it be OK to be a dick if you're curing cancer?" And when that didn't play, the argument was reframed again as: "You're harming countless strangers unless you're a dick." Twist it anyway you want, if someone wants to be a selfish dick, they should own it, not rationalize it. I'm pretty sure the conquistadors didn't do what they did because they wanted to bring Christianity to the New World... If you can't prioritize (what should be) the most important of your personal relationships above what you want to do, it's unlikely that the real reason you working is because you have a surplus of love for the world.
      - TeMPOraL 11y ago
        > If you can't prioritize (what should be) the most important of your personal relationships above what you want to do, it's unlikely that the real reason you working is because you have a surplus of love for the world. Is having a surplus of love for the world a bad thing? I believe a lot of problems would solve themselves if we have more. Also, relationships are also something you want to do, you aren't forced into them at gunpoint. Also the answer as it seems (without the context we don't know for sure) was dickish, but I wouldn't call it selfish. Just incredibly rude.
genericuser 12y ago
I think the point is, that with this job, Musk want's people whose dream and life goal is the success of what the company is trying to do, and not to have a family or any such commonly accepted life goal. I believe improving space travel is one of a handful of dreams/goals that there are potentially enough talented people out there, that one could find the people who want this to be their life as opposed to that of a more traditional role. I know this may illicit the typical 'burn out is real' responses, and I know it is but I honestly don't think it occurs if you are a person with a singular passion and you are lucky enough to be pursuing it for your 'work'.
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  I too believe it's Musk's idea. He stated many times that Tesla/SpaceX is not a regular company, but sort of "special forces" where you're supposed to give all you've got because you believe in the mission. But then again, with rising popularity of those companies, it seems that many people join them in order to build up their resumes, and then get surprised by the amount of dedication required.
astolarz 11y ago
An acquaintance who works for one of Boeing's manufacturing plants told me of an encounter he witnessed between a manager and another employee regarding how hard they were being worked. The manager told the employee, in all sincerity, that "if Boeing wanted them to have a family they would have been issued one."

TeMPOraL 12y ago

I agree that family is important and it's especially important to be there for other people, but regarding your quote, to the two gravestone inscriptions above I'd much prefer: "He helped mankind make its first steps on Mars.", or "He helped ensure the world is a good place to live for generations to come.".

pc86 12y ago
The question is about whether you'd have it say that or that you were a great father. It's rare to be able to do both, particularly if the company's CEO says having a child is "no excuse" to miss an event. Not a deadline or a board presentation or an earnings report. An event.
- gclaramunt 12y ago
  Pretty sure the ppl of Nasa/JPL who actually put a man on the moon, worked reasonable hours and almost never missed dinner with family. So, I don't think they're mutually exclusive EDIT: So, everybody was screwed then? I must have mixed anecdotes :)
  - tna 12y ago
    Your statement couldn't be farther from the truth (or you forgot the /sarcasm tag?). Watch "Moon Machines" mini-series (6 episodes), with many interviews of the engineers behind the Apollo program. They were all working crazy hours, many divorced during the project because of work/family imbalance.
  - waterlesscloud 12y ago
    "The room, the hours that we worked were incredible. I don't think anyone ever worked anything less than 10 to 12 hours each day. Saturday was a normal day of work; in fact, that's the way we felt it should be. We were given this impossible dream by President Kennedy, and we were living it. We were doing the kinds of things that engineers would kill for. And as part of this process, we'd go and open up our pay—we were surprised we were getting paid by this thing here. As long as we had enough money to make things meet, that's all we needed. The job was our life, and we lived this literally every day." - NASA Flight Controller Gene Kranz http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tothemoon/kranz.html http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tothemoon/kranz.html
    - TeMPOraL 11y ago
      Gene Kranz is an interesting case here. He had a loving and very supporting wife who would make him new vests for every mission, which became symbolic for the team he worked with. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/gene-kranzs-apollo-vest-9045125/?no-ist http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/gene-kranzs-apollo-ves...
    - harimau 11y ago
      10 - 12 hours a day is pretty typical in the entertainment business. Most tv shows do 12s for an entire year, movies about the same for less, and VFX workers during crunch time (which is near permanent for some) 12 is usually the minimum. Plus your weekends are gone. At least the guys in the Space Program were doing for a far more valuable reason.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - genericuser 11y ago
    I am pretty sure that is completely false, from what I have read of the early space program, it sounds like it had a way of devouring lives. "The Apollo 11 crew calculated they spent 2000 hours in simulators between their selection in January and their flight in July 1969." http://history.nasa.gov/SP-350/ch-8-3.html http://history.nasa.gov/SP-350/ch-8-3.html And the book makes numerous references to others at NASA working long hours too. "Apollo had become intimately interwoven in the fabric of the waking hours of my life and often caused the remaining hours to be fewer than they should have been." http://history.nasa.gov/SP-350/ch-7-1.html http://history.nasa.gov/SP-350/ch-7-1.html "I'd be checking on alertness, especially among men who had been working long hours. Were they fatigued? Were they concentrating on the dials? Was there any unnecessary chit-chat going on?" http://history.nasa.gov/SP-350/ch-6-3.html http://history.nasa.gov/SP-350/ch-6-3.html
    - kamaal 11y ago
      That is approximately 10 hours of simulator work a day, plus other regular work. Agreed that you need work very hard for success. But at what cost? There is a balance. If a person can't be there for their newly born child, one might as well not have a kid at the first place. All of us have been in situations where we had to put our head down and work marathon hours straight for days to get things done. We've also had days when we had nothing to do. We are not bots to clock $x amount of time of time everyday. There is always time to accomodate family and other commitments.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    RE your edit - that's probably part of the reason it took only 12 years after Sputnik to get a man on the moon - because for people working on it this wasn't a job, this was their life. They did it for the goal itself, and not for money.
- genericuser 12y ago
  We don't really have all the context of the message. For instance what was the event? (The launch of their first rocket might be classified as an even to Musk for all I know) What was the message that was sent to prompt this reply? I mean he starts with 'That is no excuse' so he is clearly referring to an email sent to him and I am trusting about the general content of the email chain. But for all I know this guy just got up and left work when heard his child was being born as opposed to actually taking time off. While this is a completely invented narrative by me, it could be that it was that kind of action that can leave a lot of other people in the lurch is what there was no excuse for. My point is simply that many people are reading things into the quote which do not seem to be explicitly stated, but are being treated as though they are.
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  I'd prefer to have it say both, but if I were to chose only one, I'd want Mars/future for everyone. > Not a deadline or a board presentation or an earnings report. An event. As others said, it's not clear what the "event" was and what was the context of the message. I'd be surprised if Musk really turned out to be so inconsiderate as some people assume here.
iamcurious 12y ago
I like your phrasing. It prevents being busy for its own sake. I wonder how much work at Space X is "help mankind make its first steps on Mars" and how much work is TPS reports.
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  And, were I employed at SpaceX, my commitment would probably vary depending on that distinctions. Reports can wait, so don't you dare tell me to skip a very important family moment. But if I were deep in the critical parts of the path to making humans multiplanetary species, or in Tesla the electrification of transport process, I'd probably consider this more important than any but most special personal events.
clavalle 12y ago
Mars will be there in 20 years. Your kids' childhood won't.
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  OTOH the future my kid would live in would be better. But honestly though, if I knew I'm doing work I consider that important, I wouldn't decide to have a kid in the first place.
  - clavalle 12y ago
    My uncle did that. Spent his life on eliminating malaria. Good work. Now he's dead and there are no kids in his line that might carry his intellectual legacy or create their own. Human life is short term. Good genes and culture are long term. If everyone capable burned through their 50 or so years attempting to create a better world in such a hurry there'd be few with the capacity to perpetuate that vision or create their own. It is not an either/or proposition. It is worth in in the long term to find balance, not for yourself, but for the future of humanity.
    - TeMPOraL 12y ago
      I'm sorry that your uncle passed away. I wish I could thank him while he was alive for the work he did. You have an interesting point about passing on legacy, but then again there are so many people born every day, that there will be more than enough people to perpetuate the vision if they can learn about it. Having a child furthers memory only temporary. I myself don't know much about my grand-grandparents and have no clue about who their parents were. I doubt many people do. In the end, we all get forgotten, but our work may improve the lives of next generations. > It is not an either/or proposition. It is worth in in the long term to find balance, not for yourself, but for the future of humanity. I strongly agree, and that's how I try to look at it. I don't want to burn out, but I personally don't consider starting a family to be an important goal for me. I respect that it is for many others, and I believe they should be supported. Some people sacrifice themselves for others to have better lives. Some people are the others. And many are in the middle. I don't think any of them are making a bad choice.
chrisbennet 12y ago
Neither of those things will matter to people who love you but I suppose it would help a selfish person rationalize loving their jobs more than their family.
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  That's kind of the point I'm making. Given a choice, why should I promote few people in my inner circle over hundreds, thousands or more other people? This really bothers me. There's a common mentality that says it's OK to harm countless of strangers in order to support yourself and your family. I think that is selfish.
  - chrisbennet 11y ago
    Somehow we've gone from "Elon cares more about his business than he does about his employees - to the extreme." To: "Would it be OK to be a dick if you're curing cancer?" And when that didn't play, the argument was reframed again as: "You're harming countless strangers unless you're a dick." Twist it anyway you want, if someone wants to be a selfish dick, they should own it, not rationalize it. I'm pretty sure the conquistadors didn't do what they did because they wanted to bring Christianity to the New World... If you can't prioritize (what should be) the most important of your personal relationships above what you want to do, it's unlikely that the real reason you working is because you have a surplus of love for the world.
    - TeMPOraL 11y ago
      > If you can't prioritize (what should be) the most important of your personal relationships above what you want to do, it's unlikely that the real reason you working is because you have a surplus of love for the world. Is having a surplus of love for the world a bad thing? I believe a lot of problems would solve themselves if we have more. Also, relationships are also something you want to do, you aren't forced into them at gunpoint. Also the answer as it seems (without the context we don't know for sure) was dickish, but I wouldn't call it selfish. Just incredibly rude.

genericuser 12y ago

I think the point is, that with this job, Musk want's people whose dream and life goal is the success of what the company is trying to do, and not to have a family or any such commonly accepted life goal. I believe improving space travel is one of a handful of dreams/goals that there are potentially enough talented people out there, that one could find the people who want this to be their life as opposed to that of a more traditional role. I know this may illicit the typical 'burn out is real' responses, and I know it is but I honestly don't think it occurs if you are a person with a singular passion and you are lucky enough to be pursuing it for your 'work'.

TeMPOraL 12y ago
I too believe it's Musk's idea. He stated many times that Tesla/SpaceX is not a regular company, but sort of "special forces" where you're supposed to give all you've got because you believe in the mission. But then again, with rising popularity of those companies, it seems that many people join them in order to build up their resumes, and then get surprised by the amount of dedication required.

astolarz 11y ago

An acquaintance who works for one of Boeing's manufacturing plants told me of an encounter he witnessed between a manager and another employee regarding how hard they were being worked. The manager told the employee, in all sincerity, that "if Boeing wanted them to have a family they would have been issued one."