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The market may be tough, but when the investors seem to be more interested in hooking up with you or your cofounders, or just outright groping, that points to s

The market may be tough, but when the investors seem to be more interested in hooking up with you or your cofounders, or just outright groping, that points to something else than just "wrong market" being the issue. Maybe my different perspective, but "from the outside" to me it looks like a lot of macho older men who don't take someone seriously if they are female.

mtrimpe 11y ago
I couldn't agree more. Another thing to keep in mind is that it can be really hard to continue pulling off the confidence game you need when you're being groped and propositioned. What I'm wondering about most though is how YC is handling these issues. If I'm not correct they once issued a warning to investors that bad behavior like this would mean they're out. Did the groping during Demo Day get reported? And is that investor now indeed no longer welcome to YC? And what about YC-related investors proposing dates with founders... are they still in?
wvh 11y ago
May be so, but if someone shows more interest in you rather than in your product or idea, you've kind of gotten your answer. It might be hard for men to ignore any sexual aspect in interaction, which in many situations (like pitching at funding events) is definitely inappropriate and unpleasant; you are right to call that out. I'm not excusing bad behaviour. But for better or worse, no matter how unfair it might feel or how much insult it adds to injury, you've gotten an answer. I would find it hard to believe someone goes to a fundraiser to ignore a genuinely great idea/product just because they feel a bit horny. I doubt you'd want a person with such lack of focus involved with your company.
- Hytosys 11y ago
  >I would find it hard to believe someone goes to a fundraiser to ignore a genuinely great idea/product just because they feel a bit horny. Why? Humans pass up great opportunities due to various predispositions, why not a sexual attraction bias? I fear that you're overlooking decades of documented sexual harassment in this field. It is clearly very hard for some people to take women seriously at all in a professional setting.
  - benihana 11y ago
    >decades of documented sexual harassment in this field In the past four or five years the bringing to light of discrimination, sexism and misogyny in this field has increased (and that's a good thing) and I don't doubt that women have faced discrimination in the past. But this is the first I've heard of decades of documented cases - anecdotal evidence maybe, but not concrete documented issues over the course of years. Can you share some of them?
    - jasonwocky 11y ago
      What are you asking for, here? Documented cases...but not anecdotal evidence? Aren't documented cases all individually anecdotes? > Can you share some of them? Do you really want the parent to start listing cases of sexual harassment?
      - Hytosys 11y ago
        From what I understand, benihana rightfully has a problem with my specification of cases from within the field of software (see my reply). I do agree with you and stand by my usage of "documented" as unavoidably synonymous with "individually anecdotal".
      - mreiland 11y ago
        That's a fallacy if I've ever seen one. Documented sexual harassment is not the same claim that was being made above, specifically, that men will do things like forgo investing at an investment event purely because the woman is attractive. And honestly, not even common sense bears that out, you would expect the man to invest unnecessarily in an effort to gain her attention.
        sukilot 11y ago
        It isn't about forgoing investment, it is about clouding the judgmentused to evaluate the investment opportunity. Imagine a goofy woman in torn clothing approached tmyou at a conference, with a business idea. Would you seriously consider its merits? Now consider someone whose sexual frustration hurts his ability to tell the difference between confident women in business attire from a seductress in party clothes. Lest you think this is extreme, women report his behavior constantly. Compare even just a dorky tech guy wearing a silly tie, to a cute lady wearing a hot pink scarf that falls on her breasts. Note: for women, breasts are not optional attire.
- jasonwocky 11y ago
  > I would find it hard to believe someone goes to a fundraiser to ignore a genuinely great idea/product just because they feel a bit horny. How many times have I heard on these fora that it's the team that matters as much as the idea? That the VCs faith in the the founders' abilities that drives funding at least as much as the specifics of their nascent business model? Perhaps the problem is that the "sexual aspect" seems to be interfering with these VCs founder-evaluation capabilities. And thus they're being judged solely on their current business model (which is bound to be wanting at this stage no matter who the founders are) rather than being given the benefit of intuition that male founders are.
- mercer 11y ago
  > I would find it hard to believe someone goes to a fundraiser to ignore a genuinely great idea/product just because they feel a bit horny. I don't find that hard to believe. Being male myself and having many male friends, interactions with a (pretty) woman can be strongly influenced by 'sexual/romantic' urges. And it takes effort, sometimes quite a bit of it, to turn that off sometimes. Now I don't mean that in any way as a justification. It's just what I experience and see happening. Acting on those urges/instinct/whatever is what makes it sleazy. And yet, it's quite possible that such a 'sleazy' investor, unencumbered by gender-prompted urges, might be quite alright.
sukilot 11y ago
Please dont add ageism into this.

mtrimpe 11y ago

I couldn't agree more. Another thing to keep in mind is that it can be really hard to continue pulling off the confidence game you need when you're being groped and propositioned. What I'm wondering about most though is how YC is handling these issues. If I'm not correct they once issued a warning to investors that bad behavior like this would mean they're out. Did the groping during Demo Day get reported? And is that investor now indeed no longer welcome to YC? And what about YC-related investors proposing dates with founders... are they still in?

wvh 11y ago

May be so, but if someone shows more interest in you rather than in your product or idea, you've kind of gotten your answer. It might be hard for men to ignore any sexual aspect in interaction, which in many situations (like pitching at funding events) is definitely inappropriate and unpleasant; you are right to call that out. I'm not excusing bad behaviour. But for better or worse, no matter how unfair it might feel or how much insult it adds to injury, you've gotten an answer. I would find it hard to believe someone goes to a fundraiser to ignore a genuinely great idea/product just because they feel a bit horny. I doubt you'd want a person with such lack of focus involved with your company.

Hytosys 11y ago
>I would find it hard to believe someone goes to a fundraiser to ignore a genuinely great idea/product just because they feel a bit horny. Why? Humans pass up great opportunities due to various predispositions, why not a sexual attraction bias? I fear that you're overlooking decades of documented sexual harassment in this field. It is clearly very hard for some people to take women seriously at all in a professional setting.
- benihana 11y ago
  >decades of documented sexual harassment in this field In the past four or five years the bringing to light of discrimination, sexism and misogyny in this field has increased (and that's a good thing) and I don't doubt that women have faced discrimination in the past. But this is the first I've heard of decades of documented cases - anecdotal evidence maybe, but not concrete documented issues over the course of years. Can you share some of them?
  - jasonwocky 11y ago
    What are you asking for, here? Documented cases...but not anecdotal evidence? Aren't documented cases all individually anecdotes? > Can you share some of them? Do you really want the parent to start listing cases of sexual harassment?
    - Hytosys 11y ago
      From what I understand, benihana rightfully has a problem with my specification of cases from within the field of software (see my reply). I do agree with you and stand by my usage of "documented" as unavoidably synonymous with "individually anecdotal".
    - mreiland 11y ago
      That's a fallacy if I've ever seen one. Documented sexual harassment is not the same claim that was being made above, specifically, that men will do things like forgo investing at an investment event purely because the woman is attractive. And honestly, not even common sense bears that out, you would expect the man to invest unnecessarily in an effort to gain her attention.
      - sukilot 11y ago
        It isn't about forgoing investment, it is about clouding the judgmentused to evaluate the investment opportunity. Imagine a goofy woman in torn clothing approached tmyou at a conference, with a business idea. Would you seriously consider its merits? Now consider someone whose sexual frustration hurts his ability to tell the difference between confident women in business attire from a seductress in party clothes. Lest you think this is extreme, women report his behavior constantly. Compare even just a dorky tech guy wearing a silly tie, to a cute lady wearing a hot pink scarf that falls on her breasts. Note: for women, breasts are not optional attire.
jasonwocky 11y ago
> I would find it hard to believe someone goes to a fundraiser to ignore a genuinely great idea/product just because they feel a bit horny. How many times have I heard on these fora that it's the team that matters as much as the idea? That the VCs faith in the the founders' abilities that drives funding at least as much as the specifics of their nascent business model? Perhaps the problem is that the "sexual aspect" seems to be interfering with these VCs founder-evaluation capabilities. And thus they're being judged solely on their current business model (which is bound to be wanting at this stage no matter who the founders are) rather than being given the benefit of intuition that male founders are.
mercer 11y ago
> I would find it hard to believe someone goes to a fundraiser to ignore a genuinely great idea/product just because they feel a bit horny. I don't find that hard to believe. Being male myself and having many male friends, interactions with a (pretty) woman can be strongly influenced by 'sexual/romantic' urges. And it takes effort, sometimes quite a bit of it, to turn that off sometimes. Now I don't mean that in any way as a justification. It's just what I experience and see happening. Acting on those urges/instinct/whatever is what makes it sleazy. And yet, it's quite possible that such a 'sleazy' investor, unencumbered by gender-prompted urges, might be quite alright.

sukilot 11y ago

Please dont add ageism into this.