9 ms·

I'm not happy with this. I waited on XP until they got over vista, and I'm still on 7 while I watch in bemusement at the windows 8.1 nonsense. Now, with window

I'm not happy with this. I waited on XP until they got over vista, and I'm still on 7 while I watch in bemusement at the windows 8.1 nonsense. Now, with windows 10, my security updates will come bundled with my unwanted OS changes. I doubt microsoft will let people opt out of unwanted cloud-based security risks or crazy interface experiments.

chinpokomon 11y ago
I think you could technically block updates that would appear to be major/minor updates. That level of control will have to be available for enterprise releases. I don't know what will happen with security updates though if you purposefully block some updates and allow others. It may be that some security patches will be dependent upon other system updates.
mattmanser 11y ago
They kind of hint in the article that changes will be optional when they first roll out: [this will] let Microsoft tinker more with the software to test new features and see how customers like them
- tehwalrus 11y ago
  you can almost imagine a Windows, stable and Windows, beta channel...
cleverjake 11y ago
>I doubt microsoft will let people opt out of unwanted cloud-based security risks or crazy interface experiments. you're wrong. IE/Edge has the same type of updating, and it can and ill always be opt-outable because of the enterprise.
- Mahn 11y ago
  Well but if you op-out you op-out of everything, including security updates. There's no "I want security updates but no random feature/interface changes" button.
  - txdev 11y ago
    Link to source stating this?
  - YorkianTones 11y ago
    Aren't all Windows Update packages optional? This is what I see when I look at Windows update on 8.1 (I think 7 had similar options): http://imgur.com/MxRVZ94 http://imgur.com/MxRVZ94 As someone else mentioned, to support the enterprise Microsoft makes updates piecemeal and optional.
    - speeder 11y ago
      I had Windows 8 here, Windows 8.1 force-installed itself, I found no way to opt out, or even to control when to update, I was working one day and it suddenly decided to shut me out and update itself to 8.1, there was no "cancel" or "wait" button. So, MS already pulled a stunt like that recently, why they would not do it again, specially if they want people to use some shiny new tech part of their 3e strategy?
      - akoeplinger 11y ago
        No, the upgrade to 8.1 needs to be explicitly kicked off through the Store: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/update-from-windows-8-tutorial http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/update-from-win...
        speeder 11y ago
        This is CERTAINLY not happened to me. Because I DIDN'T want Windows 8.1 installed, at all. Unless you think this tutorial is useless and people invented it because they are liars too: http://www.askvg.com/how-to-stop-automatic-forced-upgrade-from-windows-8-to-windows-8-1/ http://www.askvg.com/how-to-stop-automatic-forced-upgrade-fr...
- castell 11y ago
  Internet Explorer 11 had that automatic updates too. But it shows that Microsoft changes things that I may or may not want. They changed the "F12" Developer Tools in a significant way, basically completely replaced it with a completely new version with its positive and negative sides. And they introduced a "Search web" Bing search search box directly on the "New Tab" page that cannot be changed or removed. It also ignores the default search provider is DDG and not Bing. I really liked IE since v4 and used it ever since Windows 95 with IE4 shell upgrade that made Win95 look like Win98. But the new Microsoft is the same as the old one, maybe even worse given their software as a service mentality. I won't upgrade to Edge/IE12 and maybe not even to Win10. Win7 is perfectly fine until 2022. And afterwards maybe we all use Android or a Web based OS like Chromium/FirefoxOS and Microsoft screwed up their Windows to irrelevancy/legacy.
McGlockenshire 11y ago
> Now, with windows 10, my security updates will come bundled with my unwanted OS changes. This is going to be utter and complete chaos for any organization that performs strict change management and compatibility testing. It's already hard enough to push out normal security updates for some organizations, so having to mix in feature or even kernel changes is going to be a nightmare...
- Redoubts 11y ago
  >To support Windows 10 devices in these mission critical customer environments we will provide Long Term Servicing branches at the appropriate time intervals. On these branches, customer devices will receive the level of enterprise support expected for the mission critical systems, keeping systems more secure with the latest security and critical updates, while minimizing change by not delivering new features for the duration of mainstream (five years) and extended support (five years). On Long Term Servicing branches, customers will have the flexibility to deliver security updates and fixes via Windows Server Update Services (WSUS) which allows full control over the internal distribution of updates using existing management solutions such as System Center Configuration Manager or to receive these updates automatically via Windows Update http://blogs.windows.com/business/2015/01/30/windows-10-for-enterprise-more-secure-and-up-to-date/ http://blogs.windows.com/business/2015/01/30/windows-10-for-...
  - schoen 11y ago
    That sounds like Ubuntu's support policy! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LTS https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LTS
    - grkvlt 11y ago
      Where do you think these open source companies got the idea for long-term support policies from in the first place? Microsoft and IBM had been selling software and supporting for enough length of time that these things became necessary long before OSS projects caught up.
- rossng 11y ago
digdigdag 11y ago
Care to tell me what your issue is with Windows 8.1? I've been using 8/8.1 for well over a year now, and it has been, perhaps, one of the best installments of the Windows line of operating systems I have ever used. There are a variety of third party applications and workarounds that can effectively re-patch explorer.exe to completely disable Modern UI and bring back the old start menu (think Start Is Back).
- protomyth 11y ago
  "Care to tell me what your issue is with Windows 8.1?" You answered your own question with this line: "There are a variety of third party applications and workarounds that can effectively re-patch explorer.exe to completely disable Modern UI and bring back the old start menu (think Start Is Back)." Making a deploy image that doesn't try to get computers to sign in to Microsoft's cloud services and doesn't require patching or extensive training is very much a problem. We skipped 8 like we skipped Vista.
  - everyone 11y ago
    Its quite buggy and unstable too
- mark_l_watson 11y ago
  I switch back and forth between my minimal modern desktop and the old version with a single key press. That said, I modified the modern screen to just have a terminal, IntelliJ, Github bash terminal, and a few other things and it is handy enough for quick launches of whatever I need. I don't really think much about the windows interface, just the few apps I use. Same as with OSX and Ubuntu: a moments thought to switch between a bash shell, IntelliJ, a web browser, but 99% of of what I am thinking about is what I do in individual apps. The operating system is getting to be irrelevant in my world as an author and programmer.
- wongarsu 11y ago
  >to completely disable Modern UI Except for random settings that are kick you into a Metro settings app for no apparent reason. It feels a bit like they randomly put some settings into the Metro interface and left some settings in the Desktop interface. Before as well as after patching away the annoying parts of the "modern" UI, Windows 8.1 just feels like Windows 7 with less consistent UI and more asking for that Microsoft account I don't want to have.
mark_l_watson 11y ago
What do you like better in Windows 7 than 8.1? Seriously, I have been a long time OS X and Linux user, and 8.1 has won me back to the Microsoft fold. I still use Linux and OSX, but WIndows 8.1 is now something I frequently use. I was not impressed by Windows 7. So, serious question, what do you like better about Windows 7.
- mschuster91 11y ago
  > So, serious question, what do you like better about Windows 7. No Metro crap jumping all over you. And that's why I likely will migrate over to Linux once MS stops Win7 support.
  - agentdrtran 11y ago
    You don't have to use any Metro apps if you don't want to, and 10 brings back the start menu. If that's still to "Metro" for you you can install something like Classic Start.
    - silverbax88 11y ago
      Windows 10 brings back a Metro start menu. Initially, it was just bad, but better than Windows 8. The last updated made it much more like Windows 8. They really just don't get it at all.
    - becausecomputer 11y ago
      In Windows 8, the wifi connect menu is metro style, and it's frustrating. Reason enough to switch to Debian.
  - gregschlom 11y ago
    Just install classic shell (http://www.classicshell.net/ http://www.classicshell.net/) and that will get rid of almost all Metro crap, as you say.
    - speeder 11y ago
bitwize 11y ago
> Now, with windows 10, my security updates will come bundled with my unwanted OS changes. Had this experience with Mac OS X. For 10.4 they switched to a new, dynamically linked libstdc++ that used the new Itanium C++ ABI. 10.3 had a statically linked libstdc++ and the old ABI. They pushed out an OS update that installed the new libstdc++ on 10.3, breaking linking against libstdc++ with standard cxxflags. You see they had integrated cross-compilation for 10.3 into the new Xcode on 10.4, and didn't give a shit about people who were still compiling stuff on 10.3. I decided after that that if Apple was going to break working compilation on my OS because I hadn't upgraded to the newest and shiniest, then they didn't really want my money. They seem to be doing OK without it, and I'm doing fine without them. If Microsoft pulls this sort of stunt with Windows, then fuck everything about this change. They're such sticklers in the opposite direction, doing so much to ensure backward-compatible everything that the house of cards sometimes comes crashing down, that I don't think that will be a problem with Windows 10+x.
- 72deluxe 11y ago
  Very informative, thanks. I write software for my daily job on OSX and I get the feeling that if you're not "current" then they don't care. Look at how they handled the recent security update and left all Mavericks users in the lurch by not back-porting the fix. (Does anyone know if they ever did?)
  - danieldk 11y ago
    Which vulnerability? https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201222 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201222 I was under the impression that they are currently updating 10.8 to 10.0 (if it affects all these releases).
    - 72deluxe 11y ago
      Specifically, OS X Yosemite v10.10.3 and Security Update 2015-004 Admin Framework Available for: OS X Yosemite v10.10 to v10.10.2 CVE-2015-1130 : Emil Kvarnhammar at TrueSec https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT204659 https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT204659 https://truesecdev.wordpress.com/2015/04/09/hidden-backdoor-api-to-root-privileges-in-apple-os-x/ https://truesecdev.wordpress.com/2015/04/09/hidden-backdoor-... Are they backporting this?
diminoten 11y ago
> while I watch in bemusement at the windows 8.1 nonsense. This isn't really a thing, not anywhere near the level of Vista. You're more of a luddite in this behavior than I think you may realize.

chinpokomon 11y ago

I think you could technically block updates that would appear to be major/minor updates. That level of control will have to be available for enterprise releases. I don't know what will happen with security updates though if you purposefully block some updates and allow others. It may be that some security patches will be dependent upon other system updates.

mattmanser 11y ago

They kind of hint in the article that changes will be optional when they first roll out: [this will] let Microsoft tinker more with the software to test new features and see how customers like them

tehwalrus 11y ago
you can almost imagine a Windows, stable and Windows, beta channel...

cleverjake 11y ago

>I doubt microsoft will let people opt out of unwanted cloud-based security risks or crazy interface experiments. you're wrong. IE/Edge has the same type of updating, and it can and ill always be opt-outable because of the enterprise.

Mahn 11y ago
Well but if you op-out you op-out of everything, including security updates. There's no "I want security updates but no random feature/interface changes" button.
- txdev 11y ago
  Link to source stating this?
- YorkianTones 11y ago
  Aren't all Windows Update packages optional? This is what I see when I look at Windows update on 8.1 (I think 7 had similar options): http://imgur.com/MxRVZ94 http://imgur.com/MxRVZ94 As someone else mentioned, to support the enterprise Microsoft makes updates piecemeal and optional.
  - speeder 11y ago
    I had Windows 8 here, Windows 8.1 force-installed itself, I found no way to opt out, or even to control when to update, I was working one day and it suddenly decided to shut me out and update itself to 8.1, there was no "cancel" or "wait" button. So, MS already pulled a stunt like that recently, why they would not do it again, specially if they want people to use some shiny new tech part of their 3e strategy?
    - akoeplinger 11y ago
      No, the upgrade to 8.1 needs to be explicitly kicked off through the Store: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/update-from-windows-8-tutorial http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/update-from-win...
      - speeder 11y ago
        This is CERTAINLY not happened to me. Because I DIDN'T want Windows 8.1 installed, at all. Unless you think this tutorial is useless and people invented it because they are liars too: http://www.askvg.com/how-to-stop-automatic-forced-upgrade-from-windows-8-to-windows-8-1/ http://www.askvg.com/how-to-stop-automatic-forced-upgrade-fr...
castell 11y ago
Internet Explorer 11 had that automatic updates too. But it shows that Microsoft changes things that I may or may not want. They changed the "F12" Developer Tools in a significant way, basically completely replaced it with a completely new version with its positive and negative sides. And they introduced a "Search web" Bing search search box directly on the "New Tab" page that cannot be changed or removed. It also ignores the default search provider is DDG and not Bing. I really liked IE since v4 and used it ever since Windows 95 with IE4 shell upgrade that made Win95 look like Win98. But the new Microsoft is the same as the old one, maybe even worse given their software as a service mentality. I won't upgrade to Edge/IE12 and maybe not even to Win10. Win7 is perfectly fine until 2022. And afterwards maybe we all use Android or a Web based OS like Chromium/FirefoxOS and Microsoft screwed up their Windows to irrelevancy/legacy.

McGlockenshire 11y ago

> Now, with windows 10, my security updates will come bundled with my unwanted OS changes. This is going to be utter and complete chaos for any organization that performs strict change management and compatibility testing. It's already hard enough to push out normal security updates for some organizations, so having to mix in feature or even kernel changes is going to be a nightmare...

Redoubts 11y ago
>To support Windows 10 devices in these mission critical customer environments we will provide Long Term Servicing branches at the appropriate time intervals. On these branches, customer devices will receive the level of enterprise support expected for the mission critical systems, keeping systems more secure with the latest security and critical updates, while minimizing change by not delivering new features for the duration of mainstream (five years) and extended support (five years). On Long Term Servicing branches, customers will have the flexibility to deliver security updates and fixes via Windows Server Update Services (WSUS) which allows full control over the internal distribution of updates using existing management solutions such as System Center Configuration Manager or to receive these updates automatically via Windows Update http://blogs.windows.com/business/2015/01/30/windows-10-for-enterprise-more-secure-and-up-to-date/ http://blogs.windows.com/business/2015/01/30/windows-10-for-...
- schoen 11y ago
  That sounds like Ubuntu's support policy! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LTS https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LTS
  - grkvlt 11y ago
    Where do you think these open source companies got the idea for long-term support policies from in the first place? Microsoft and IBM had been selling software and supporting for enough length of time that these things became necessary long before OSS projects caught up.
rossng 11y ago

digdigdag 11y ago

Care to tell me what your issue is with Windows 8.1? I've been using 8/8.1 for well over a year now, and it has been, perhaps, one of the best installments of the Windows line of operating systems I have ever used. There are a variety of third party applications and workarounds that can effectively re-patch explorer.exe to completely disable Modern UI and bring back the old start menu (think Start Is Back).

protomyth 11y ago
"Care to tell me what your issue is with Windows 8.1?" You answered your own question with this line: "There are a variety of third party applications and workarounds that can effectively re-patch explorer.exe to completely disable Modern UI and bring back the old start menu (think Start Is Back)." Making a deploy image that doesn't try to get computers to sign in to Microsoft's cloud services and doesn't require patching or extensive training is very much a problem. We skipped 8 like we skipped Vista.
- everyone 11y ago
  Its quite buggy and unstable too
mark_l_watson 11y ago
I switch back and forth between my minimal modern desktop and the old version with a single key press. That said, I modified the modern screen to just have a terminal, IntelliJ, Github bash terminal, and a few other things and it is handy enough for quick launches of whatever I need. I don't really think much about the windows interface, just the few apps I use. Same as with OSX and Ubuntu: a moments thought to switch between a bash shell, IntelliJ, a web browser, but 99% of of what I am thinking about is what I do in individual apps. The operating system is getting to be irrelevant in my world as an author and programmer.
wongarsu 11y ago
>to completely disable Modern UI Except for random settings that are kick you into a Metro settings app for no apparent reason. It feels a bit like they randomly put some settings into the Metro interface and left some settings in the Desktop interface. Before as well as after patching away the annoying parts of the "modern" UI, Windows 8.1 just feels like Windows 7 with less consistent UI and more asking for that Microsoft account I don't want to have.

mark_l_watson 11y ago

What do you like better in Windows 7 than 8.1? Seriously, I have been a long time OS X and Linux user, and 8.1 has won me back to the Microsoft fold. I still use Linux and OSX, but WIndows 8.1 is now something I frequently use. I was not impressed by Windows 7. So, serious question, what do you like better about Windows 7.

mschuster91 11y ago
> So, serious question, what do you like better about Windows 7. No Metro crap jumping all over you. And that's why I likely will migrate over to Linux once MS stops Win7 support.
- agentdrtran 11y ago
  You don't have to use any Metro apps if you don't want to, and 10 brings back the start menu. If that's still to "Metro" for you you can install something like Classic Start.
  - silverbax88 11y ago
    Windows 10 brings back a Metro start menu. Initially, it was just bad, but better than Windows 8. The last updated made it much more like Windows 8. They really just don't get it at all.
  - becausecomputer 11y ago
    In Windows 8, the wifi connect menu is metro style, and it's frustrating. Reason enough to switch to Debian.
- gregschlom 11y ago
  Just install classic shell (http://www.classicshell.net/ http://www.classicshell.net/) and that will get rid of almost all Metro crap, as you say.
  - speeder 11y ago

bitwize 11y ago

> Now, with windows 10, my security updates will come bundled with my unwanted OS changes. Had this experience with Mac OS X. For 10.4 they switched to a new, dynamically linked libstdc++ that used the new Itanium C++ ABI. 10.3 had a statically linked libstdc++ and the old ABI. They pushed out an OS update that installed the new libstdc++ on 10.3, breaking linking against libstdc++ with standard cxxflags. You see they had integrated cross-compilation for 10.3 into the new Xcode on 10.4, and didn't give a shit about people who were still compiling stuff on 10.3. I decided after that that if Apple was going to break working compilation on my OS because I hadn't upgraded to the newest and shiniest, then they didn't really want my money. They seem to be doing OK without it, and I'm doing fine without them. If Microsoft pulls this sort of stunt with Windows, then fuck everything about this change. They're such sticklers in the opposite direction, doing so much to ensure backward-compatible everything that the house of cards sometimes comes crashing down, that I don't think that will be a problem with Windows 10+x.

72deluxe 11y ago
Very informative, thanks. I write software for my daily job on OSX and I get the feeling that if you're not "current" then they don't care. Look at how they handled the recent security update and left all Mavericks users in the lurch by not back-porting the fix. (Does anyone know if they ever did?)
- danieldk 11y ago
  Which vulnerability? https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201222 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201222 I was under the impression that they are currently updating 10.8 to 10.0 (if it affects all these releases).
  - 72deluxe 11y ago
    Specifically, OS X Yosemite v10.10.3 and Security Update 2015-004 Admin Framework Available for: OS X Yosemite v10.10 to v10.10.2 CVE-2015-1130 : Emil Kvarnhammar at TrueSec https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT204659 https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT204659 https://truesecdev.wordpress.com/2015/04/09/hidden-backdoor-api-to-root-privileges-in-apple-os-x/ https://truesecdev.wordpress.com/2015/04/09/hidden-backdoor-... Are they backporting this?

diminoten 11y ago

> while I watch in bemusement at the windows 8.1 nonsense. This isn't really a thing, not anywhere near the level of Vista. You're more of a luddite in this behavior than I think you may realize.