4 ms·

I can imagine that they feel themselves productive with EJB but only without the contrast say Ruby, Python or LISP would give.

by edem 11y ago

speakeron 11y ago
You may think that, but productivity is really about a smart person who knows their tools. And, of course, at least they won't have do a rewrite when it becomes apparent that they have to scale big time.
- edem 11y ago
  This statement is false. If all else being equal the better tool you use the more productive you become. Take assembly for insance. You can know assembly arbitrarily well (and any assembly tools) you won't be faster with assembly than you are with java.
  - john-waterwood 11y ago
    With Java EE being clearly the better tool compared to Python and Ruby. Python is laughable. One word; GIL. Nuf said.
    - edem 11y ago
      That statement is not backed by any facts by you so it is unacceptable.
      - john-waterwood 11y ago
        Google for "GIL Python" and have a laugh (or cry). I think that's enough backing for my statement to begin with. Java, and so Java EE is considerably faster than Python, each and every benchmark out there proves this. Often it's up to a hundred times faster. Java has a much richer ecosystem than Python and even more so than Ruby. Java projects are also much easier to maintain and much easier to scale. Enough backing? It's just the start of why Java EE is the better tool ;)
M8 11y ago
They probably care about maintainability though.
- LunaSea 11y ago
  Enterprise software ™
edwinnathaniel 11y ago
Choosing Java over Ruby/Python for your web-app really depends on what you want to sacrifice. I counted LISP out because unless you're using Clojure, I know for sure you're not going to be able to beat anything else for web-app development. LISP for web-app probably works in the 90's for PG but we're in 2015 where libraries, frameworks, and tools for these other languages are just far too advanced and more productive than writing macros... sorry mate. Anyway, back to Java over Ruby/Python. Take a few examples: At the Microservice area, Java seems to shine over other languages/platforms. JAX-RS feels more complete than Sinatra or whatever Django plugins that the Python community use. See a quick example of JAX-RS vs Sinatra somewhere in this blog post: (http://www.appneta.com/blog/microservice-service-oriented-architecture/ http://www.appneta.com/blog/microservice-service-oriented-ar...) Maven can be huge and underwhelming (and ugly once in a while) but it's definitely more powerful than gems+bundler+rake and whatever Python adopts these days. Maven has been around for a while so most Java DEVs don't have to pick up tools as Python DEVs have to do quite often. But again, there are trade-offs: Maven XML is definitely uglier than Bundler or requirements.txt or package.json. Let me ask one thing: in platform other than Java, do you use declarative transaction? My guess is "No". Which means you have to know when to open and close a transaction (and potentially join an existing one if the library isn't smart enough). Java Spring/EJB provides annotation based transaction. I'm not suggesting that Java is better than other languages, but there are advantages of choosing Java.
- edem 11y ago
  Clojure is a LISP and from my experience I'm way faster with Clojure than with Java. Plus Clojure can use any java library. And by the way it seems that you have never used any lisp for web development. When you bump into the first problem with the bloatware made of 30.000 files and you have to debug it because there were no answers on stackoverflow...then you will find all out about the dark sides of "advanced frameworks".

I can imagine that they feel themselves productive with EJB but only without the contrast say Ruby, Python or LISP would give.

by edem 11y ago

I can imagine that they feel themselves productive with EJB but only without the contrast say Ruby, Python or LISP would give.

speakeron 11y ago

You may think that, but productivity is really about a smart person who knows their tools. And, of course, at least they won't have do a rewrite when it becomes apparent that they have to scale big time.

edem 11y ago
This statement is false. If all else being equal the better tool you use the more productive you become. Take assembly for insance. You can know assembly arbitrarily well (and any assembly tools) you won't be faster with assembly than you are with java.
- john-waterwood 11y ago
  With Java EE being clearly the better tool compared to Python and Ruby. Python is laughable. One word; GIL. Nuf said.
  - edem 11y ago
    That statement is not backed by any facts by you so it is unacceptable.
    - john-waterwood 11y ago
      Google for "GIL Python" and have a laugh (or cry). I think that's enough backing for my statement to begin with. Java, and so Java EE is considerably faster than Python, each and every benchmark out there proves this. Often it's up to a hundred times faster. Java has a much richer ecosystem than Python and even more so than Ruby. Java projects are also much easier to maintain and much easier to scale. Enough backing? It's just the start of why Java EE is the better tool ;)

M8 11y ago

They probably care about maintainability though.

LunaSea 11y ago
Enterprise software ™

edwinnathaniel 11y ago

Choosing Java over Ruby/Python for your web-app really depends on what you want to sacrifice. I counted LISP out because unless you're using Clojure, I know for sure you're not going to be able to beat anything else for web-app development. LISP for web-app probably works in the 90's for PG but we're in 2015 where libraries, frameworks, and tools for these other languages are just far too advanced and more productive than writing macros... sorry mate. Anyway, back to Java over Ruby/Python. Take a few examples: At the Microservice area, Java seems to shine over other languages/platforms. JAX-RS feels more complete than Sinatra or whatever Django plugins that the Python community use. See a quick example of JAX-RS vs Sinatra somewhere in this blog post: (http://www.appneta.com/blog/microservice-service-oriented-architecture/ http://www.appneta.com/blog/microservice-service-oriented-ar...) Maven can be huge and underwhelming (and ugly once in a while) but it's definitely more powerful than gems+bundler+rake and whatever Python adopts these days. Maven has been around for a while so most Java DEVs don't have to pick up tools as Python DEVs have to do quite often. But again, there are trade-offs: Maven XML is definitely uglier than Bundler or requirements.txt or package.json. Let me ask one thing: in platform other than Java, do you use declarative transaction? My guess is "No". Which means you have to know when to open and close a transaction (and potentially join an existing one if the library isn't smart enough). Java Spring/EJB provides annotation based transaction. I'm not suggesting that Java is better than other languages, but there are advantages of choosing Java.

edem 11y ago
Clojure is a LISP and from my experience I'm way faster with Clojure than with Java. Plus Clojure can use any java library. And by the way it seems that you have never used any lisp for web development. When you bump into the first problem with the bloatware made of 30.000 files and you have to debug it because there were no answers on stackoverflow...then you will find all out about the dark sides of "advanced frameworks".