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"The intent is to stop things like what happens in South America" ... so the intent is to stop the people of economically poor but resource rich countries from

"The intent is to stop things like what happens in South America" ... so the intent is to stop the people of economically poor but resource rich countries from having a say in whether or not they continue to have their natural resources exploited by wealthy foreigners? That doesn't sound positive to me at all.

Frondo 11y ago
Yep. The risk of doing business in a foreign country is that your firm--at least for now--has no direct political recourse (excluding stuff like bribes) if that foreign country does something you don't like. That should be built into the business model, that risk.
anigbrowl 11y ago
Oh please, Find me someone in the US that doesn't like the part of the US constitution that says if the government takes something from you, it has to be paid for. While I'm not particularly a fan of oil companies, they didn't just turn up in a country and start drilling wells without permission. Generally they were invited in by governments that lacked the technology or capital ot build a domestic oil industry. Countries frequently publish invitations to tender and it's reasonable for both parties to such contracts to expect the other side to deal in good faith. Oil companies do pay royalties on the resources they extract to the governments of those countries. Now, I'm a lot more worried about the environmental record of those oil companies, but let's not fool ourselves that they snuck in and set up drilling rigs and refineries without permission.
- hexscrews 11y ago
  "While I'm not particularly a fan of oil companies, they didn't just turn up in a country and start drilling wells without permission." Tell that to the people of iraq.
  - anigbrowl 11y ago
    Really. So someone went in and started drilling wells without asking anyone? Go on, tell me who. I was heartily against the invasion of Iraq, but trying to equate the two is just bullshit. This is a great example of why our politics are so dysfunctional - people just trading zingers instead of making the slightest attempt to be factual.
    - XorNot 11y ago
      No, someone went in, paid off some local politicians and military leaders, who then went in and forcibly (read: murdered a few of them) locals and any opposition. Then underpaid some contractors so that there would be none of the pesky expensive safe disposal of waste. Oh, not to mention also had some militias shakedown workers when they protest a lack of pay, late pay or basic rights. Think it doesn't happen? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M42ATZXmIKw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M42ATZXmIKw
      - anigbrowl 11y ago
        This is a video about the South African mining strike (which I agree was a clusterfuck). The conversation was about oil exploitation in Iraq. How can I take your position seriously when you just move the goalposts around like that? My basic point is not that corporate investments are necessarily fairly run or favorable to poor people in a developing country. They're not, and if you read my posts here regularly you'll see I'm actually quite skeptical of corporate governance and market idealism. On the other hand, one has to recognize that it takes two to tango; corporations buy things like mineral exploitation rights from governments, and ultimately the government of a nation has to be responsive to its population, notwithstanding the fact that many governments are despotic. This being the case, it behooves new governments reviewing unfavorable deals to renegotiate terms like royalty rates or lease terms (both of which happen all the time), whereas unilateral expropriation should be a last resort because it signals to any and all investors that the country in question is an unreliable place to invest, so you scare away ethical investors as well as greedy ones.
    - ubernostrum 11y ago
      Well, the historical precedent here is actually Iran. And look how well things went when foreign business interests were given that kind of standing there.
- hansjorg 11y ago
  > they didn't just turn up in a country and start drilling wells without permission Permission from whom? What an incredibly naive world view.
  - anigbrowl 11y ago
    I'm well aware of the history of the US meddling in Latin America. On the other hand, many governments in Latin America have been over-eager to just blame external forces for their economic problems and attempt to solve them via expropriation. I still hear this argument from supporters of the Venezuelan government; you don't have to be a raging capitalist to think that the government of that country is catastrophically incompetent. Last time I looked they were nationalizing supermarkets.
- crdoconnor 11y ago
  >While I'm not particularly a fan of oil companies, they didn't just turn up in a country and start drilling wells without permission. Generally they were invited in by governments that lacked the technology or capital ot build a domestic oil industry. Or, in South America, invited by the previous government, which was often an America-installed despot.

Frondo 11y ago

Yep. The risk of doing business in a foreign country is that your firm--at least for now--has no direct political recourse (excluding stuff like bribes) if that foreign country does something you don't like. That should be built into the business model, that risk.

anigbrowl 11y ago

Oh please, Find me someone in the US that doesn't like the part of the US constitution that says if the government takes something from you, it has to be paid for. While I'm not particularly a fan of oil companies, they didn't just turn up in a country and start drilling wells without permission. Generally they were invited in by governments that lacked the technology or capital ot build a domestic oil industry. Countries frequently publish invitations to tender and it's reasonable for both parties to such contracts to expect the other side to deal in good faith. Oil companies do pay royalties on the resources they extract to the governments of those countries. Now, I'm a lot more worried about the environmental record of those oil companies, but let's not fool ourselves that they snuck in and set up drilling rigs and refineries without permission.

hexscrews 11y ago
"While I'm not particularly a fan of oil companies, they didn't just turn up in a country and start drilling wells without permission." Tell that to the people of iraq.
- anigbrowl 11y ago
  Really. So someone went in and started drilling wells without asking anyone? Go on, tell me who. I was heartily against the invasion of Iraq, but trying to equate the two is just bullshit. This is a great example of why our politics are so dysfunctional - people just trading zingers instead of making the slightest attempt to be factual.
  - XorNot 11y ago
    No, someone went in, paid off some local politicians and military leaders, who then went in and forcibly (read: murdered a few of them) locals and any opposition. Then underpaid some contractors so that there would be none of the pesky expensive safe disposal of waste. Oh, not to mention also had some militias shakedown workers when they protest a lack of pay, late pay or basic rights. Think it doesn't happen? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M42ATZXmIKw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M42ATZXmIKw
    - anigbrowl 11y ago
      This is a video about the South African mining strike (which I agree was a clusterfuck). The conversation was about oil exploitation in Iraq. How can I take your position seriously when you just move the goalposts around like that? My basic point is not that corporate investments are necessarily fairly run or favorable to poor people in a developing country. They're not, and if you read my posts here regularly you'll see I'm actually quite skeptical of corporate governance and market idealism. On the other hand, one has to recognize that it takes two to tango; corporations buy things like mineral exploitation rights from governments, and ultimately the government of a nation has to be responsive to its population, notwithstanding the fact that many governments are despotic. This being the case, it behooves new governments reviewing unfavorable deals to renegotiate terms like royalty rates or lease terms (both of which happen all the time), whereas unilateral expropriation should be a last resort because it signals to any and all investors that the country in question is an unreliable place to invest, so you scare away ethical investors as well as greedy ones.
  - ubernostrum 11y ago
    Well, the historical precedent here is actually Iran. And look how well things went when foreign business interests were given that kind of standing there.
hansjorg 11y ago
> they didn't just turn up in a country and start drilling wells without permission Permission from whom? What an incredibly naive world view.
- anigbrowl 11y ago
  I'm well aware of the history of the US meddling in Latin America. On the other hand, many governments in Latin America have been over-eager to just blame external forces for their economic problems and attempt to solve them via expropriation. I still hear this argument from supporters of the Venezuelan government; you don't have to be a raging capitalist to think that the government of that country is catastrophically incompetent. Last time I looked they were nationalizing supermarkets.
crdoconnor 11y ago
>While I'm not particularly a fan of oil companies, they didn't just turn up in a country and start drilling wells without permission. Generally they were invited in by governments that lacked the technology or capital ot build a domestic oil industry. Or, in South America, invited by the previous government, which was often an America-installed despot.