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I'd love to see some financial analysis: 1) cost of producing the same amount of electricity with Netherlands' most common electricity production 2) cost of b

I'd love to see some financial analysis: 1) cost of producing the same amount of electricity with Netherlands' most common electricity production 2) cost of building this vs. a normal bike path, and time for recovering the cost considering #1 3) expected life of this system + anual maintenance cost 4) cost of a typical roof installation for the same surface

quchen 12y ago
5) Cost of a normal bike path with ordinary solar cells of equal area next to it
- holri 12y ago
  6.) CO2 and energy saving.
- ghshephard 12y ago
  5.1 Cost of a normal bike path with ordinary solar cells on top of it (providing shade, and shelter from the rain, with presumably greater efficiency)
  - mod 12y ago
    This is actually what I envisioned before I looked up some pictures (if there were any in the article, they didn't load for me). It seems more practical, in particular for a bike path.
    - greglindahl 12y ago
      That's already well-studied, for parking lots with shade structures. I'm astonished how many people are weighing in to trash a small project researching something new that might be interesting!
      - ghshephard 12y ago
        I'm definitely not trashing it - I'm enthusiastically interested in whether it's viable. What I'd love to know is what the expected cost structure, at scale might be, in comparison to other options.
zackmorris 12y ago
There probably won't be a win on a purely mathematical/financial level at first. 3000 kWh in 6 months is only about $300 worth of electricity at 10 cents/kWh. I don't care how low the cost of paving gets, it's not going to compete with the cheapest form of energy in human history (burning stuff - traditionally wood, then peat, then coal as the availability of fuel inevitably dwindled, and now to deep sea exploration, fracking and tar sands that are only economical if externalities aren’t considered). The real win (as I see it) is in converting economies from continuous financial outlays going up in smoke to one-time investments with exponential returns spread over similar time frames. Automation and amortization are the future. Each time a drag on the economy like inefficiency, unsustainability or rent seekers are innovated around, the truth that sustainability is cheaper eventually proves itself in their absence. Even if some of these clever experiments cost 10 times more than the market rate at first, it will click for people that maybe they can lower their own energy usage by half through minor lifestyle changes (whose side effects include greater health and happiness), and drop that by half again with more efficient devices. So most people can get down to 1/4 of their current usage for next to nothing essentially, and now we're only talking a factor of 2.5 times more expensive to go from an unsustainable to a sustainable society. Then if we live with that liberated mindset long enough, the Moore’s law of alternative energy takes care of the discrepancy in a matter of decades. This is already happening and probably unstoppable at this point except through excessive lobbying and fast tracking, which we are seeing as well.
- nitrogen 12y ago
  This still doesn't tell us why we should put solar panels in bike paths instead of on rooftops. A solar roadway seems far from sustainable. Those efficiency gains you claim decrease the roadway cost would be even more effective combined with rooftop solar.
  - stcredzero 12y ago
    For that matter, why not put the panels over the path, on an awning? Thin film panels could be built into tarps that are stretched over the roadway between anchored poles. You could reduce the coverage price to something commensurate with lighting.
crdb 12y ago
As a subset of 1), don't forget: cost of buying it from the French who have a nice surplus thanks to their massive nuclear capability (as the British already do [1]). [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVDC_Cross-Channel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVDC_Cross-Channel "As of 2005 imports of electricity from France have historically accounted for about 5% of electricity available in the UK." See also: "France was the biggest energy exporter in the EU in 2012, exporting 45TWh of electricity to its neighbours." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_France http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_France

quchen 12y ago

5) Cost of a normal bike path with ordinary solar cells of equal area next to it

holri 12y ago
6.) CO2 and energy saving.
ghshephard 12y ago
5.1 Cost of a normal bike path with ordinary solar cells on top of it (providing shade, and shelter from the rain, with presumably greater efficiency)
- mod 12y ago
  This is actually what I envisioned before I looked up some pictures (if there were any in the article, they didn't load for me). It seems more practical, in particular for a bike path.
  - greglindahl 12y ago
    That's already well-studied, for parking lots with shade structures. I'm astonished how many people are weighing in to trash a small project researching something new that might be interesting!
    - ghshephard 12y ago
      I'm definitely not trashing it - I'm enthusiastically interested in whether it's viable. What I'd love to know is what the expected cost structure, at scale might be, in comparison to other options.

zackmorris 12y ago

There probably won't be a win on a purely mathematical/financial level at first. 3000 kWh in 6 months is only about $300 worth of electricity at 10 cents/kWh. I don't care how low the cost of paving gets, it's not going to compete with the cheapest form of energy in human history (burning stuff - traditionally wood, then peat, then coal as the availability of fuel inevitably dwindled, and now to deep sea exploration, fracking and tar sands that are only economical if externalities aren’t considered). The real win (as I see it) is in converting economies from continuous financial outlays going up in smoke to one-time investments with exponential returns spread over similar time frames. Automation and amortization are the future. Each time a drag on the economy like inefficiency, unsustainability or rent seekers are innovated around, the truth that sustainability is cheaper eventually proves itself in their absence. Even if some of these clever experiments cost 10 times more than the market rate at first, it will click for people that maybe they can lower their own energy usage by half through minor lifestyle changes (whose side effects include greater health and happiness), and drop that by half again with more efficient devices. So most people can get down to 1/4 of their current usage for next to nothing essentially, and now we're only talking a factor of 2.5 times more expensive to go from an unsustainable to a sustainable society. Then if we live with that liberated mindset long enough, the Moore’s law of alternative energy takes care of the discrepancy in a matter of decades. This is already happening and probably unstoppable at this point except through excessive lobbying and fast tracking, which we are seeing as well.

nitrogen 12y ago
This still doesn't tell us why we should put solar panels in bike paths instead of on rooftops. A solar roadway seems far from sustainable. Those efficiency gains you claim decrease the roadway cost would be even more effective combined with rooftop solar.
- stcredzero 12y ago
  For that matter, why not put the panels over the path, on an awning? Thin film panels could be built into tarps that are stretched over the roadway between anchored poles. You could reduce the coverage price to something commensurate with lighting.

crdb 12y ago

As a subset of 1), don't forget: cost of buying it from the French who have a nice surplus thanks to their massive nuclear capability (as the British already do [1]). [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVDC_Cross-Channel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVDC_Cross-Channel "As of 2005 imports of electricity from France have historically accounted for about 5% of electricity available in the UK." See also: "France was the biggest energy exporter in the EU in 2012, exporting 45TWh of electricity to its neighbours." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_France http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_France