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The goal of those sections of the agreement are to force governments to treat foreign investment the same as if it had arrived from a resident. The intent is t

The goal of those sections of the agreement are to force governments to treat foreign investment the same as if it had arrived from a resident. The intent is to stop things like what happens in South America, where they look around, see an oil company sitting there that is majority foreign owned and nationalise it to fix a balance of payments issue[2]. Some organisations (like Philip Morris) will try to use it as a hammer, but that's because anyone can sue. The US is already party to similar agreements - NAFTA being one. They've even got a standard set of terms for them [1]. First world countries with strong court systems already have these protections in place. This is aimed at other countries who don't have quite as strong a rule of law. As for secrecy... Just because congress gives the President fast-track negotiation rights doesn't mean that the deal has to pass. It just means that congress has to have a straight up or down vote on it, without amendments. There will still be time to review and debate it. Agreements are negotiated in secret. Can you imagine a trade agreement negotiated in the current US Congress? [1] http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/188371.pdf http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/188371.pdf [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrobras#Bolivian_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrobras#Bolivian_controversy

sdepablos 11y ago
Sorry, but I still prefer the current state of affairs than having secret pacts that diminish the sovereignty of my country in favor of big transnationals, that only look for themselves, justify everything with a "we only look after our investors interest" and don't know the meaning of morality. The Philip Morris - a company that sells products that kill people - case against Australia is a clear example on how bad things end up with this kind of pacts.
- anigbrowl 11y ago
  Most international agreements are negotiated in secret. When it's time for Congress to vote on it, you'll be able to chew over the terms. I have to say I'm really tired of the willfully ignorant memes around this trade deal, as if it were some unprecedented thing in history.
crdoconnor 11y ago
>The intent is to stop things like what happens in South America, where they look around, see an oil company sitting there that is majority foreign owned and nationalise it to fix a balance of payments issue[2] This was normally done to channel the vast oil wealth into the country where it could help people rather than into the pockets of wealthy foreigners. Call it 'fixing a balance of payments issue if you will'. Or, call it "helping the poor". It's both. >First world countries with strong court systems already have these protections in place. This is aimed at other countries who don't have quite as strong a rule of law. Foreign corporations will be able to sue the American government for lost profits under the TPP. This will undoubtedly be used to try and stifle new labor & environmental protection laws. >Agreements are negotiated in secret. Sure. When you've got something you desperately want to hide from the public.
gnud 11y ago
As someone who has benefitted a whole lot from nationalized industries, I feel it would be immoral for me to deny other countries the same opportunity. For me, the shareholders in an oil company are less important than the inhabitants of the oil rich countries.
georgemcbay 11y ago
"The intent is to stop things like what happens in South America" ... so the intent is to stop the people of economically poor but resource rich countries from having a say in whether or not they continue to have their natural resources exploited by wealthy foreigners? That doesn't sound positive to me at all.
- Frondo 11y ago
  Yep. The risk of doing business in a foreign country is that your firm--at least for now--has no direct political recourse (excluding stuff like bribes) if that foreign country does something you don't like. That should be built into the business model, that risk.
- anigbrowl 11y ago
  Oh please, Find me someone in the US that doesn't like the part of the US constitution that says if the government takes something from you, it has to be paid for. While I'm not particularly a fan of oil companies, they didn't just turn up in a country and start drilling wells without permission. Generally they were invited in by governments that lacked the technology or capital ot build a domestic oil industry. Countries frequently publish invitations to tender and it's reasonable for both parties to such contracts to expect the other side to deal in good faith. Oil companies do pay royalties on the resources they extract to the governments of those countries. Now, I'm a lot more worried about the environmental record of those oil companies, but let's not fool ourselves that they snuck in and set up drilling rigs and refineries without permission.
  - hexscrews 11y ago
    "While I'm not particularly a fan of oil companies, they didn't just turn up in a country and start drilling wells without permission." Tell that to the people of iraq.
    - anigbrowl 11y ago
      Really. So someone went in and started drilling wells without asking anyone? Go on, tell me who. I was heartily against the invasion of Iraq, but trying to equate the two is just bullshit. This is a great example of why our politics are so dysfunctional - people just trading zingers instead of making the slightest attempt to be factual.

sdepablos 11y ago

Sorry, but I still prefer the current state of affairs than having secret pacts that diminish the sovereignty of my country in favor of big transnationals, that only look for themselves, justify everything with a "we only look after our investors interest" and don't know the meaning of morality. The Philip Morris - a company that sells products that kill people - case against Australia is a clear example on how bad things end up with this kind of pacts.

anigbrowl 11y ago
Most international agreements are negotiated in secret. When it's time for Congress to vote on it, you'll be able to chew over the terms. I have to say I'm really tired of the willfully ignorant memes around this trade deal, as if it were some unprecedented thing in history.

crdoconnor 11y ago

>The intent is to stop things like what happens in South America, where they look around, see an oil company sitting there that is majority foreign owned and nationalise it to fix a balance of payments issue[2] This was normally done to channel the vast oil wealth into the country where it could help people rather than into the pockets of wealthy foreigners. Call it 'fixing a balance of payments issue if you will'. Or, call it "helping the poor". It's both. >First world countries with strong court systems already have these protections in place. This is aimed at other countries who don't have quite as strong a rule of law. Foreign corporations will be able to sue the American government for lost profits under the TPP. This will undoubtedly be used to try and stifle new labor & environmental protection laws. >Agreements are negotiated in secret. Sure. When you've got something you desperately want to hide from the public.

gnud 11y ago

As someone who has benefitted a whole lot from nationalized industries, I feel it would be immoral for me to deny other countries the same opportunity. For me, the shareholders in an oil company are less important than the inhabitants of the oil rich countries.

georgemcbay 11y ago

"The intent is to stop things like what happens in South America" ... so the intent is to stop the people of economically poor but resource rich countries from having a say in whether or not they continue to have their natural resources exploited by wealthy foreigners? That doesn't sound positive to me at all.

Frondo 11y ago
Yep. The risk of doing business in a foreign country is that your firm--at least for now--has no direct political recourse (excluding stuff like bribes) if that foreign country does something you don't like. That should be built into the business model, that risk.
anigbrowl 11y ago
Oh please, Find me someone in the US that doesn't like the part of the US constitution that says if the government takes something from you, it has to be paid for. While I'm not particularly a fan of oil companies, they didn't just turn up in a country and start drilling wells without permission. Generally they were invited in by governments that lacked the technology or capital ot build a domestic oil industry. Countries frequently publish invitations to tender and it's reasonable for both parties to such contracts to expect the other side to deal in good faith. Oil companies do pay royalties on the resources they extract to the governments of those countries. Now, I'm a lot more worried about the environmental record of those oil companies, but let's not fool ourselves that they snuck in and set up drilling rigs and refineries without permission.
- hexscrews 11y ago
  "While I'm not particularly a fan of oil companies, they didn't just turn up in a country and start drilling wells without permission." Tell that to the people of iraq.
  - anigbrowl 11y ago
    Really. So someone went in and started drilling wells without asking anyone? Go on, tell me who. I was heartily against the invasion of Iraq, but trying to equate the two is just bullshit. This is a great example of why our politics are so dysfunctional - people just trading zingers instead of making the slightest attempt to be factual.