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And that's the rub, right? You agree with most prior free trade deals because you're privy to the information needed to form an opinion about them. You and I ma

And that's the rub, right? You agree with most prior free trade deals because you're privy to the information needed to form an opinion about them. You and I may disagree, but we have access to the facts in order to have informed debate. Keeping things secret can only be done because access to those facts would be almost universally distasteful to everyone - so let's not tell anyone. (It's easy to then make a jump to human rights, as violations of those are almost always secret.)

anigbrowl 11y ago
Those other trade deals were negotiated in secret before being presented to Congress for a vote, or to the public if it was a simple bilateral agreement without treaty powers. Do we negotiate nuclear policy iwth Iran on live TV with a big audience in the room? Of course not. Do we negotiate clogal warming agreements in public? No. The whole point of international negotiation is to sit down and be able to work out your differences in a de-politicized manner and then submit an agreement to legislatures for approval. I swear, I've never seen so much paranoid bullshit as I have about his TPP thing. This is diplomacy, not fucking reality TV.
- themartorana 11y ago
  Nuclear agreements that deal with nations' rights to defend themselves on a level that could wipe out all life on Earth is so far and away different from trying to secretly enshrine universally disliked copyright laws for monetary protectionism, that it's mind-numbing that you would leave a comment with such snark while lacking any ability to differentiate between the topic we're dealing with and nuclear proliferation. The TPP is aggressively trying to enshrine SOPA-esque laws on the international level - laws that have repeatedly been defeated by almost universal public outcry. The fact that they're reintroduced in secrecy, as a method to circumvent the will of nations of people is where the hate for the TPP comes from.
  - anigbrowl 11y ago
    Then if such provisions make it through to the final version, encourage your representative to vote against it. I refuse to get caught up in this fake issue of diplomats negotiating things in secret - as far as I'm concerned that's a distinct positive, as i minimizes the opportunity for politicians to engage in unproductive grandstanding.
    - papaf 11y ago
      I refuse to get caught up in this fake issue of diplomats negotiating things in secret Diplomats and lobbyists: https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/lookup.php?type=i&q=Trans-Pacific+Partnership https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/lookup.php?type=i&q=Trans-... If Nike gets a voice why don't I? minimizes the opportunity for politicians to engage in unproductive grandstanding But if lobbyists are involved then its already politics - just without the democracy.
- wpietri 11y ago
  Do you have any evidence that, say, NAFTA was secret before the vote? I don't recall any of that from the time. I also don't recall this level of secrecy around climate negotiations.

anigbrowl 11y ago

Those other trade deals were negotiated in secret before being presented to Congress for a vote, or to the public if it was a simple bilateral agreement without treaty powers. Do we negotiate nuclear policy iwth Iran on live TV with a big audience in the room? Of course not. Do we negotiate clogal warming agreements in public? No. The whole point of international negotiation is to sit down and be able to work out your differences in a de-politicized manner and then submit an agreement to legislatures for approval. I swear, I've never seen so much paranoid bullshit as I have about his TPP thing. This is diplomacy, not fucking reality TV.

themartorana 11y ago
Nuclear agreements that deal with nations' rights to defend themselves on a level that could wipe out all life on Earth is so far and away different from trying to secretly enshrine universally disliked copyright laws for monetary protectionism, that it's mind-numbing that you would leave a comment with such snark while lacking any ability to differentiate between the topic we're dealing with and nuclear proliferation. The TPP is aggressively trying to enshrine SOPA-esque laws on the international level - laws that have repeatedly been defeated by almost universal public outcry. The fact that they're reintroduced in secrecy, as a method to circumvent the will of nations of people is where the hate for the TPP comes from.
- anigbrowl 11y ago
  Then if such provisions make it through to the final version, encourage your representative to vote against it. I refuse to get caught up in this fake issue of diplomats negotiating things in secret - as far as I'm concerned that's a distinct positive, as i minimizes the opportunity for politicians to engage in unproductive grandstanding.
  - papaf 11y ago
    I refuse to get caught up in this fake issue of diplomats negotiating things in secret Diplomats and lobbyists: https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/lookup.php?type=i&q=Trans-Pacific+Partnership https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/lookup.php?type=i&q=Trans-... If Nike gets a voice why don't I? minimizes the opportunity for politicians to engage in unproductive grandstanding But if lobbyists are involved then its already politics - just without the democracy.
wpietri 11y ago
Do you have any evidence that, say, NAFTA was secret before the vote? I don't recall any of that from the time. I also don't recall this level of secrecy around climate negotiations.