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This rotation of mechanisms of action to undo resistance is already widely practiced in agriculture with pesticides. It is part of the reason why organic agric

This rotation of mechanisms of action to undo resistance is already widely practiced in agriculture with pesticides. It is part of the reason why organic agriculture and its heavy use of pesticides with low rotation is so problematic. (In the crops I work most in, organic farmers spray a lot more than conventional farmers on balance. As surprising as that might be to people outside of agriculture.)

SomeStupidPoint 11y ago
I must admit that I don't really have the background to process your comment. Can you... give a paragraph or two on what normal is and what organic farmers are doing differently to cause the difference?
- gameshot911 11y ago
  I'm confused too - I thought 'organic' meant no pesticides were used.
  - Angostura 11y ago
    It depends quite considerably on which country you're in. In the UK 'organic' is heavily regulated and means pretty much that, in the U.S it's more lax. But my guess is that the poster is saying that because organic farmers have a much smaller range of less potent sprays available, they have to spray more by volume.
    - Melting_Harps 11y ago
      Hmmm.. you'd be surprised, mate; I did spend time in the West part of England and the occasional use of artificial pesticide was not uncommon especially when your top soil has been washed away and been battered due to flooding/erosion like it was in 2014 during those storms. Organic is a label, that while better than conventional is not to be blindly accepted as a panacea--that is why the community part of CSA should not be forgotten.
      - gpvos 11y ago
        CSA = Community-supported agriculture
      - Angostura 11y ago
        I would be surprised, yes. There is a very short list of pesticides that can be used and a slightly longer list that can be used with specific permission. Which pesticides were being used on your farm? And did the farm lose organic certification. But even more - what has pesticide use got to do with top-soil loss? I'm not quite clear.
  - domas 11y ago
    Usually "organic" means that no synthetic pesticides or genetic modification were used. You are allowed to use pesticides from natural sources. In practice it means that organic farmers are using less effective pesticides and must use more of it to reach the same effectiveness. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_certification http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_certification It's a classic Appeal to nature tactic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature
- hibikir 11y ago
  There's a variety of differences. One of them is seeds themselves. Modern GMOs, more than being about being resistant to specific herbicides, are about built in pest control. It's part of the sales pitch to farmers: Buy this new seed, and you'll spend less in pesticides. With a traditional seed, a farmer gets to either lose a lot of yield, or use pesticides. Organic farming doesn't ban all pesticides: Some are considered natural, and are used a whole lot to protect the crop. The problem is that organic pesticides are not necessarily less toxic for humans, or less likely to harm the environment. In fact, some organic pesticides are very toxic, even though they are 'natural'. It get worse when we take into account that they have to be used in large quantities. Practical toxicity is affected by how much we use, and then ho much actually 'leaks out' of the farm. We also have the lower yields: A more 'natural' seed tends to yield less in practice, so to get the same number of bushels, you need to plant more plants, and protect more plants. Welcome less forests, and more pesticides! So the picture of toxicity and environmental impact of organic vs GMO+synthetic pesticides is pretty complicated.
Melting_Harps 11y ago
> I must admit that I don't really have the background to process your comment. > Can you... give a paragraph or two on what normal is and what organic farmers are doing differently to cause the difference? >> I'm confused too - I thought 'organic' meant no pesticides were used. I may be wrong, but given the context I think he means to say that organic farmers will regularly spray more frequently (things like neem or DE) which are to protect against pests or compost teas on heavy feeder crops. I never did conventional agriculture, but regularly observed it (vegetable/vineyards) from afar during my apprenticeship in Europe and I think this varies depending on crop (eg something like 50% of all pesticides used in the US is used on cotton for example). And to add further context depending on the type of organic agriculture (as it encompasses 3 branches in my opinion) you will also want to inoculate your soil bacteria/microorganisms for soil vitality and to fine-tune the microbiology as well as perform homeopathic remedies t follow your growing season. Source: I'm a Biodyanmic Master Gardener/Farm Manager with a background in Biology. PS: Nice to see more people involved in tech and Ag, terravion; I'm also merging the two, do you mind if we can chat about your operations tech position? I just finished my project in Maui and I'm back home in California with only a side project to keep me busy this season and I want to get my head back in; I made some recent headway with the organic/biodynamic community in Sonoma county when I was up there last month that I think may prove useful to your operation.

SomeStupidPoint 11y ago

I must admit that I don't really have the background to process your comment. Can you... give a paragraph or two on what normal is and what organic farmers are doing differently to cause the difference?

gameshot911 11y ago
I'm confused too - I thought 'organic' meant no pesticides were used.
- Angostura 11y ago
  It depends quite considerably on which country you're in. In the UK 'organic' is heavily regulated and means pretty much that, in the U.S it's more lax. But my guess is that the poster is saying that because organic farmers have a much smaller range of less potent sprays available, they have to spray more by volume.
  - Melting_Harps 11y ago
    Hmmm.. you'd be surprised, mate; I did spend time in the West part of England and the occasional use of artificial pesticide was not uncommon especially when your top soil has been washed away and been battered due to flooding/erosion like it was in 2014 during those storms. Organic is a label, that while better than conventional is not to be blindly accepted as a panacea--that is why the community part of CSA should not be forgotten.
    - gpvos 11y ago
      CSA = Community-supported agriculture
    - Angostura 11y ago
      I would be surprised, yes. There is a very short list of pesticides that can be used and a slightly longer list that can be used with specific permission. Which pesticides were being used on your farm? And did the farm lose organic certification. But even more - what has pesticide use got to do with top-soil loss? I'm not quite clear.
- domas 11y ago
  Usually "organic" means that no synthetic pesticides or genetic modification were used. You are allowed to use pesticides from natural sources. In practice it means that organic farmers are using less effective pesticides and must use more of it to reach the same effectiveness. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_certification http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_certification It's a classic Appeal to nature tactic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature
hibikir 11y ago
There's a variety of differences. One of them is seeds themselves. Modern GMOs, more than being about being resistant to specific herbicides, are about built in pest control. It's part of the sales pitch to farmers: Buy this new seed, and you'll spend less in pesticides. With a traditional seed, a farmer gets to either lose a lot of yield, or use pesticides. Organic farming doesn't ban all pesticides: Some are considered natural, and are used a whole lot to protect the crop. The problem is that organic pesticides are not necessarily less toxic for humans, or less likely to harm the environment. In fact, some organic pesticides are very toxic, even though they are 'natural'. It get worse when we take into account that they have to be used in large quantities. Practical toxicity is affected by how much we use, and then ho much actually 'leaks out' of the farm. We also have the lower yields: A more 'natural' seed tends to yield less in practice, so to get the same number of bushels, you need to plant more plants, and protect more plants. Welcome less forests, and more pesticides! So the picture of toxicity and environmental impact of organic vs GMO+synthetic pesticides is pretty complicated.

Melting_Harps 11y ago

> I must admit that I don't really have the background to process your comment. > Can you... give a paragraph or two on what normal is and what organic farmers are doing differently to cause the difference? >> I'm confused too - I thought 'organic' meant no pesticides were used. I may be wrong, but given the context I think he means to say that organic farmers will regularly spray more frequently (things like neem or DE) which are to protect against pests or compost teas on heavy feeder crops. I never did conventional agriculture, but regularly observed it (vegetable/vineyards) from afar during my apprenticeship in Europe and I think this varies depending on crop (eg something like 50% of all pesticides used in the US is used on cotton for example). And to add further context depending on the type of organic agriculture (as it encompasses 3 branches in my opinion) you will also want to inoculate your soil bacteria/microorganisms for soil vitality and to fine-tune the microbiology as well as perform homeopathic remedies t follow your growing season. Source: I'm a Biodyanmic Master Gardener/Farm Manager with a background in Biology. PS: Nice to see more people involved in tech and Ag, terravion; I'm also merging the two, do you mind if we can chat about your operations tech position? I just finished my project in Maui and I'm back home in California with only a side project to keep me busy this season and I want to get my head back in; I made some recent headway with the organic/biodynamic community in Sonoma county when I was up there last month that I think may prove useful to your operation.