7 ms·

I'm not sure how to gauge this. I think Holacracy may be one of the dumber pseudo-science management theories that's ever come out. If it works for Zappos I'll

by bane 12y ago

I'm not sure how to gauge this. I think Holacracy may be one of the dumber pseudo-science management theories that's ever come out. If it works for Zappos I'll eat my hat I guess, but I have a feeling that all we'll hear about it is that "it's working great!" as the ship goes down in flames. Holacracy and other ultra-flat org structures always share two features: - It consolidates power in the people at the top (the people who do not participate in the flatness of the new structure) - as social animal, humans will always naturally self-organize into de-facto hierarchies that may or may not be aligned with the needs of the organization Prediction, the 14% that took the buyout are probably the ones that couldn't fit into the new clique driven de-facto structure and were kissing years of promotable work goodbye. These folks will likely be successful wherever they go. Meaning that the people left behind have either cemented a position in the new structure through force of personality (not competency) or are not otherwise employable elsewhere and will suffer as the assholes fight it out on the bridge. Here's an employee review http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-The-Zappos-Family-RVW6462350.htm http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-The-Zappos-...

iolothebard 12y ago
That review sounds exactly like what I expected. It's more a rah-rah you're with us or against us mentality. Sounds rather cultish even. It's like places saying they're okay with flex time but you get poor reviews by butts-in-the-seat managers regardless to your actual performance. This is why I'm simply riding the clock at my current job. It's sucked the life out of me. Change is on its way fortunately.
ryoshu 12y ago
Seems to work for Valve, with a few obvious problems: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Corporation#Organizational_structure http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Corporation#Organizationa...
- larzang 12y ago
  Valve is the exception that proves the rule, i.e. you need a stable cash cow so large that your frequently-aimless often-delayed progress on anything else doesn't break the company.
- kansface 12y ago
  Talk to employees and you may hear differently.
  - deelowe 12y ago
    I've heard the same. The answer to bad managers and overly complex corporate structure isn't to completely get rid of all structure and managers.
- bane 12y ago
  Here's Valve's reviews http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Valve-Corporation-Reviews-E24849.htm http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Valve-Corporation-Reviews-E... Here's some choice quotes: "While it's true that Valve has no official job titles or promotions, compensation varies greatly among employees and many teams have an obvious pecking order. There is no formal management structure, but it's clear that some people have substantially more control over project direction and the work of others." "Because teams are intended to be self-forming, it's rare that enough people will want to assume risk to all collectively embark on a new project. It's too safe and too profitable to just contribute to something that's already successful. Even though failure is supposed to be tolerated and even encouraged so that employees will try new ideas and experiments, there is little evidence of this. After a few rounds of bonuses, folks learn quickly what is rewarded, and what is not." "The idealistic paradise is ultimately undone by a flawed review system. The lack of managers means that a peer review system is necessary, and Valve is very proud of theirs. But their review model is best described as a "popularity contest masquerading as data"" "Those who get stock options do extremely well, and the others do not. It’s an unacknowledged two-class system." "The rational response to this uncertainty is to find a patron – somebody who can guarantee you a good review if you do their bidding. These patrons (the knights) guarantee themselves good reviews by doing the bidding of a higher-level patron (a baron), and the barons pledge fealty to the board members. This unofficial structure necessarily evolved and you opt out of it at your peril. The irony of a hierarchical structure spontaneously forming in Gabe Newell’s company after he has spoken so strongly about the problems of “command-and-control type hierarchical systems” is delicious. As was noted in “The Tyranny of Structurelessness”, “structurelessness becomes a way of masking power”, and this masked power is more insidious than formal power." "So, I quit in order to get better compensation, an acknowledged hierarchy, and appreciation for my work." "This organization has a purposely opaque, hierarchical, secretive, and very rigid management structure." "Some projects can go on literally for 5+ years wandering around pointlessly without shipping, with little to no direction, and no accountability. This company is terrible at writing and shipping large scale software" "The random mass firings of 2013 tanked moral, and the stream of talent leaving the company during 2014 didn't help." "The yearly review process lacks feedback, transparency, and coverage. This company has no formal HR, so good luck if you need to give genuine feedback about troublesome coworkers." "The lack of solid structure in management reduces the company to schoolyard politics where bullies and loudmouths reign." (Title: "It's like being in high school again") "The culture at Valve is a bit like a cult. There's a party line and if you veer from that, it is discouraged with one-liners rather than discussion." "The incentives are setup so the people who place themselves around upper management the most and are the loudest about what they're doing (that jives with what upper management likes) will be compensated several times more than those who don't."
ryandrake 12y ago
That's my prediction as well. Without a designated leadership structure, it will devolve into high-school-esque in- and out-crowds where the cool kids and big-talkers run the show and the smart kids and do-ers leave.
mattmanser 12y ago
Well, today Paddy Ashdown in the UK said he'd eat his hat if the exit polls in the UK were correct. They were correct. He didn't eat a hat. No matter what happens, you won't eat a hat. No matter what happens at zappo's I can 100% guarantee you will never eat a hat. I will 100% confirm that you will never, ever eat a hat because you are a liar. The only thing we can be 100% sure about is that you are a liar who will never eat a hat. I'm not going to offer to eat a hat if you eat a hat, because I'd be a liar as I'd never eat a hat, but I am confidant in saying you are a complete and utter liar who we should ignore because you won't ever eat a hat. Ever. You lied, you are a liar and you will never, ever, ever eat a hat. So the complete and utter liar and completely pointless commentator in this entire escapade is you. You said something, we shouldn't listen to it. Simply because you are a liar who will never, ever eat a hat even if you are wrong. My Dad once offered to eat a hat. Not to me, but to the local paper. Ultimately, he was right. He was still an idiot for offering to eat a hat. Because he wouldn't have eaten that hat.
- jqm 12y ago
  In this case "I'll eat my shoe" might be more appropriate.
  - jfb 12y ago
    Careful with that [1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Herzog_Eats_His_Shoe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Herzog_Eats_His_Shoe
- deegles 12y ago
  "Avoid gratuitous negativity."
  - Gigablah 12y ago
    I would categorize that as humour, actually.
- bane 12y ago
  This is probably the most fascinating response I've ever received by a non-newbie on HN. I'm not even sure how to think about it. It's like some kind of weird attempt to get shadowbanned or something.
reviseddamage 12y ago
Motorola pioneered six-sigma, i guess Zappos wants to pioneer a brand of management style (sans management).

by bane 12y ago

iolothebard 12y ago

That review sounds exactly like what I expected. It's more a rah-rah you're with us or against us mentality. Sounds rather cultish even. It's like places saying they're okay with flex time but you get poor reviews by butts-in-the-seat managers regardless to your actual performance. This is why I'm simply riding the clock at my current job. It's sucked the life out of me. Change is on its way fortunately.

ryoshu 12y ago

Seems to work for Valve, with a few obvious problems: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Corporation#Organizational_structure http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Corporation#Organizationa...

larzang 12y ago
Valve is the exception that proves the rule, i.e. you need a stable cash cow so large that your frequently-aimless often-delayed progress on anything else doesn't break the company.
kansface 12y ago
Talk to employees and you may hear differently.
- deelowe 12y ago
  I've heard the same. The answer to bad managers and overly complex corporate structure isn't to completely get rid of all structure and managers.
bane 12y ago
Here's Valve's reviews http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Valve-Corporation-Reviews-E24849.htm http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Valve-Corporation-Reviews-E... Here's some choice quotes: "While it's true that Valve has no official job titles or promotions, compensation varies greatly among employees and many teams have an obvious pecking order. There is no formal management structure, but it's clear that some people have substantially more control over project direction and the work of others." "Because teams are intended to be self-forming, it's rare that enough people will want to assume risk to all collectively embark on a new project. It's too safe and too profitable to just contribute to something that's already successful. Even though failure is supposed to be tolerated and even encouraged so that employees will try new ideas and experiments, there is little evidence of this. After a few rounds of bonuses, folks learn quickly what is rewarded, and what is not." "The idealistic paradise is ultimately undone by a flawed review system. The lack of managers means that a peer review system is necessary, and Valve is very proud of theirs. But their review model is best described as a "popularity contest masquerading as data"" "Those who get stock options do extremely well, and the others do not. It’s an unacknowledged two-class system." "The rational response to this uncertainty is to find a patron – somebody who can guarantee you a good review if you do their bidding. These patrons (the knights) guarantee themselves good reviews by doing the bidding of a higher-level patron (a baron), and the barons pledge fealty to the board members. This unofficial structure necessarily evolved and you opt out of it at your peril. The irony of a hierarchical structure spontaneously forming in Gabe Newell’s company after he has spoken so strongly about the problems of “command-and-control type hierarchical systems” is delicious. As was noted in “The Tyranny of Structurelessness”, “structurelessness becomes a way of masking power”, and this masked power is more insidious than formal power." "So, I quit in order to get better compensation, an acknowledged hierarchy, and appreciation for my work." "This organization has a purposely opaque, hierarchical, secretive, and very rigid management structure." "Some projects can go on literally for 5+ years wandering around pointlessly without shipping, with little to no direction, and no accountability. This company is terrible at writing and shipping large scale software" "The random mass firings of 2013 tanked moral, and the stream of talent leaving the company during 2014 didn't help." "The yearly review process lacks feedback, transparency, and coverage. This company has no formal HR, so good luck if you need to give genuine feedback about troublesome coworkers." "The lack of solid structure in management reduces the company to schoolyard politics where bullies and loudmouths reign." (Title: "It's like being in high school again") "The culture at Valve is a bit like a cult. There's a party line and if you veer from that, it is discouraged with one-liners rather than discussion." "The incentives are setup so the people who place themselves around upper management the most and are the loudest about what they're doing (that jives with what upper management likes) will be compensated several times more than those who don't."

ryandrake 12y ago

That's my prediction as well. Without a designated leadership structure, it will devolve into high-school-esque in- and out-crowds where the cool kids and big-talkers run the show and the smart kids and do-ers leave.

mattmanser 12y ago

Well, today Paddy Ashdown in the UK said he'd eat his hat if the exit polls in the UK were correct. They were correct. He didn't eat a hat. No matter what happens, you won't eat a hat. No matter what happens at zappo's I can 100% guarantee you will never eat a hat. I will 100% confirm that you will never, ever eat a hat because you are a liar. The only thing we can be 100% sure about is that you are a liar who will never eat a hat. I'm not going to offer to eat a hat if you eat a hat, because I'd be a liar as I'd never eat a hat, but I am confidant in saying you are a complete and utter liar who we should ignore because you won't ever eat a hat. Ever. You lied, you are a liar and you will never, ever, ever eat a hat. So the complete and utter liar and completely pointless commentator in this entire escapade is you. You said something, we shouldn't listen to it. Simply because you are a liar who will never, ever eat a hat even if you are wrong. My Dad once offered to eat a hat. Not to me, but to the local paper. Ultimately, he was right. He was still an idiot for offering to eat a hat. Because he wouldn't have eaten that hat.

jqm 12y ago
In this case "I'll eat my shoe" might be more appropriate.
- jfb 12y ago
  Careful with that [1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Herzog_Eats_His_Shoe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Herzog_Eats_His_Shoe
deegles 12y ago
"Avoid gratuitous negativity."
- Gigablah 12y ago
  I would categorize that as humour, actually.
bane 12y ago
This is probably the most fascinating response I've ever received by a non-newbie on HN. I'm not even sure how to think about it. It's like some kind of weird attempt to get shadowbanned or something.

reviseddamage 12y ago

Motorola pioneered six-sigma, i guess Zappos wants to pioneer a brand of management style (sans management).