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Are you speaking from experience? It seems that if you completely do away with job titles, the politics would go away right?

by jmtame 11y ago

detaro 11y ago
Politics isn't tied to job titles. There still are people with different amounts of influence that try to influence others for their own goals. FWIW, Jeri Ellsworth (who was hired to do hardware stuff, didn't do well there and was fired in the end) described office politics at Valve "like back in high school". Not saying that it can't work, but it also is not without its flaws.
- cthalupa 11y ago
  I wasn't aware of who Jeri Ellsworth was, but a cursory look says that she was fired by Valve. Were her comments before or after she was fired? I'm not sure that if it was after, we can necessarily count on it being objective. I've heard plenty of people make comments that aren't exactly the most accurate after they've been fired.
  - detaro 11y ago
    True, should have mentioned that (edited it in). Relatively certain it was afterwards.
  - calinet6 11y ago
    It's very difficult to deduce causality in that situation. She could have been fired due to not fitting in with the organization due to her valid concerns, or she could have brought up concerns due to bias from being fired. It is most likely somewhere in the middle, where her observations were somewhat truthful and somewhat biased.
  - dalke 11y ago
    http://www.develop-online.net/news/valve-s-perfect-hiring-hierarchy-has-hidden-management-clique-like-high-school/0115316 http://www.develop-online.net/news/valve-s-perfect-hiring-hi... , which is one of the parent posts, gives some of the timing details. Even if it were before, would you "necessarily count on it being objective"? It seems like an impossibly high standard, given how many people make comments that aren't exactly accurate before they've been fired.
    - cthalupa 11y ago
      > given how many people make comments that aren't exactly accurate before they've been fired That's certainly fair. I'm not making a comment one way or the other - I don't know her, I don't know the story, and I have no knowledge that leads me to believe one way or the other. I just naturally am a bit more skeptical of comments made about companies from employees who were fired. People at a company can certainly make untrue comments, and people who were fired can certainly make true ones. It's just that, in my experience, there's a higher chance of negative bias in someone who was let go from a company.
pshc 11y ago
Sorry, but that's not how large groups of humans self-organize. Many idealists have tried, but power vacuums don't stay for long, nor are they efficient.
calinet6 11y ago
Yes, I am speaking from experience directly with a holocratic organization.
- jmtame 11y ago
  Thanks for replying, I was genuinely curious.
gjm11 11y ago
> if you completely do away with job titles, the politics would go away For anyone who finds this plausible, it might be enlightening to contemplate (1) the first "hacker koan" at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_koan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_koan and (2) this classic XKCD cartoonhttps://xkcd.com/592/ https://xkcd.com/592/ .
DannyBee 11y ago
Plenty of people are still status driven. So either you have to decide you want 0 of these people at your company, or else ... Honestly, my experience has been that structure is one of the key things that makes teams effective (not structure as in "rigid meetings/etc", but structure in the sense of "understanding what their role is and where they fit in") This doesn't strictly require managers, of course, but self-organization rarely works out that well either as the org gets larger (you have the same problems, they are just hidden and nobody is accountable) :)

Are you speaking from experience? It seems that if you completely do away with job titles, the politics would go away right?

by jmtame 11y ago

Are you speaking from experience? It seems that if you completely do away with job titles, the politics would go away right?

detaro 11y ago

Politics isn't tied to job titles. There still are people with different amounts of influence that try to influence others for their own goals. FWIW, Jeri Ellsworth (who was hired to do hardware stuff, didn't do well there and was fired in the end) described office politics at Valve "like back in high school". Not saying that it can't work, but it also is not without its flaws.

cthalupa 11y ago
I wasn't aware of who Jeri Ellsworth was, but a cursory look says that she was fired by Valve. Were her comments before or after she was fired? I'm not sure that if it was after, we can necessarily count on it being objective. I've heard plenty of people make comments that aren't exactly the most accurate after they've been fired.
- detaro 11y ago
  True, should have mentioned that (edited it in). Relatively certain it was afterwards.
- calinet6 11y ago
  It's very difficult to deduce causality in that situation. She could have been fired due to not fitting in with the organization due to her valid concerns, or she could have brought up concerns due to bias from being fired. It is most likely somewhere in the middle, where her observations were somewhat truthful and somewhat biased.
- dalke 11y ago
  http://www.develop-online.net/news/valve-s-perfect-hiring-hierarchy-has-hidden-management-clique-like-high-school/0115316 http://www.develop-online.net/news/valve-s-perfect-hiring-hi... , which is one of the parent posts, gives some of the timing details. Even if it were before, would you "necessarily count on it being objective"? It seems like an impossibly high standard, given how many people make comments that aren't exactly accurate before they've been fired.
  - cthalupa 11y ago
    > given how many people make comments that aren't exactly accurate before they've been fired That's certainly fair. I'm not making a comment one way or the other - I don't know her, I don't know the story, and I have no knowledge that leads me to believe one way or the other. I just naturally am a bit more skeptical of comments made about companies from employees who were fired. People at a company can certainly make untrue comments, and people who were fired can certainly make true ones. It's just that, in my experience, there's a higher chance of negative bias in someone who was let go from a company.

pshc 11y ago

Sorry, but that's not how large groups of humans self-organize. Many idealists have tried, but power vacuums don't stay for long, nor are they efficient.

calinet6 11y ago

Yes, I am speaking from experience directly with a holocratic organization.

jmtame 11y ago
Thanks for replying, I was genuinely curious.

gjm11 11y ago

> if you completely do away with job titles, the politics would go away For anyone who finds this plausible, it might be enlightening to contemplate (1) the first "hacker koan" at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_koan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_koan and (2) this classic XKCD cartoonhttps://xkcd.com/592/ https://xkcd.com/592/ .

DannyBee 11y ago

Plenty of people are still status driven. So either you have to decide you want 0 of these people at your company, or else ... Honestly, my experience has been that structure is one of the key things that makes teams effective (not structure as in "rigid meetings/etc", but structure in the sense of "understanding what their role is and where they fit in") This doesn't strictly require managers, of course, but self-organization rarely works out that well either as the org gets larger (you have the same problems, they are just hidden and nobody is accountable) :)