6 ms·

Corporate loyalty died when companies stopped paying pensions, or severely reducing pensions. Our parents always worried about pensions and corporate loyalty. I

by SEJeff 12y ago

Corporate loyalty died when companies stopped paying pensions, or severely reducing pensions. Our parents always worried about pensions and corporate loyalty. In our generation, and especially technology, we make a lot more money, and can generally make even more by switching jobs. Therefor, corporate loyalty, in the current tech industry, is virtually dead. The one case that it isn't is perhaps companies like google where an employee gets the founders award, which is millions of $$$ of stock options that vest over a relatively large stretch of years. I know a guy who won this award and he is google for life.

istvan__ 12y ago
Could not agree more, the only downside is that some companies see you as a job hopper, but you can just explain to them that losing 30K-40K/year (aka staying in your job) is not an option
- SEJeff 12y ago
  I've worked at companies at a minimum of 2 years or more and have switched between 5 companies. Would that be considered job hopping? If I was a hiring manager, seems totally reasonable to me.
  - byoung2 12y ago
    I have been at 6 companies in 10 years and have not had a problem explaining it. In tech, 1 year per company is reasonable as a minimum.
    - istvan__ 12y ago
      Same here, I had to explain to a HR manager once, but I told them if they don't get it they are not looking for me. :)
    - ghaff 12y ago
      Maybe at Silicon Valley startups but it will raise flags in many places. That may be fine based on your interests however.
- rifung 12y ago
  Is 30k-40k really correct? That seems a bit high to me.. If you could make even 30k more a year from switching jobs, and you started at the standard 100k, after 10 years you would be making 400k. I haven't heard of any developers who make 400k. Then again, I suppose you never said this was for developers, so is there another job where this actually applies?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - nazgul 12y ago
    There's only been one documented (via a lawsuit) in the 400K range, although that was a few years ago: http://adtmag.com/articles/2011/05/27/what-highest-paid-programmers-earn.aspx http://adtmag.com/articles/2011/05/27/what-highest-paid-prog...
  - istvan__ 12y ago
    I was following this pattern: test engineer, administrator, junior developer, developer, senior developer, principal developer, architect, principal architect. My last 2 job changes were in the 20 - 40K increase range. 250K is not unheard of. I guess this caps out somewhere, but if the US immigration keeps H1Bs under this control than we are going to soon experiencing 300K wages.
    - rifung 12y ago
      Ah okay I think when you said job change I just assumed it meant going to another company, not having a new position or title. I do wonder how quickly you can change positions though. I imagine once you get to senior it's very difficult keep going higher. At least this was what I heard at Amazon. Do you know if it's easier to get promoted when switching jobs? I have a hard time believing that since I think you would have had to accomplish something significant on several projects to get to principal, but if you switch companies it's very hard for them to truly the impact of what you did.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- s73v3r 12y ago
  Then they'll simply complain that you're only "motivated by money" and that you "don't really want to be part of this team". This is, of course, ignoring the fact that everyone is motivated by money, and almost none of their employees would still be working there if they stopped paying.
logfromblammo 12y ago
Corporate loyalty is a two-way street. In medieval times, the vassal paid homage and swore fealty in a commendation ceremony, and the lord granted him a fief. The vassal had a duty to aid his lord, and the lord had a duty to protect his vassal. The vassal gave loyalty, and got a secure income in return. It was a permanent relationship. To dissolve it, you had to use an axe, rather than a pink slip. Corporate loyalty died when management culture forgot that the company owes duties to its employees in addition to its shareholders. Defined benefit pensions became defined contribution retirement plans. Then the employer contribution disappeared. Health insurance plans dwindled from all medical expenses paid to you paying 80% of the premium, $30 co-pays at every turn, and deductibles that are met midway through the twelfth month of the plan fiscal year, then reset. Training programs evaporated. Severance packages got smaller, or vanished. Even the amount of notice I get whenever permanent layoffs are to occur has become days, rather than months. So there are no more loyal vassals. We are all mercenaries now. I'll start sending out resumes if I so much as notice that the building has a new janitor. H. R. tells new hires: "How great it is to work here!" Give me cash, not lies. If corporate loyalty is dead, it is because corporations have killed it.
- a3n 12y ago
  Exactly. There's no "there" there.
NorthGuy11 12y ago
The death of pensions really did it. My wife and I each stumbled upon positions with a pension, and it seems as if the roller-coaster just stopped. We had no "loyalty" and moved around whenever the mood struck us, but now we look at the risk/reward of a more exciting job vs 25 years of stability and a secure retirement... it's not a hard decision to make.
- mikekchar 12y ago
  Just be careful. I used to work at Nortel in Canada which at one point had over 90k employees. When I worked there, I believe they were making $18 billion a year in revenue. Profits appeared to be good. A few years later it turned out the "good profits" were actually accounting fraud. The company tanked and everyone lost their job. But Nortel had a fairly good pension system, so the people who had worked there for 25 years or more were fine, right? Well, the company feared that while they were tanking the "best and brightest" executives would leave. Oh my! What to do? They were allowed to siphon the pension money into "executive retention bonuses". Of course this didn't stop the company from ultimately running out of money, but it did get rid of a large part of the pension money. Investigate your pension scheme and make sure you understand what will happen to your money should the company go out of business. Especially find out where the pension system is ranked as a creditor. No company is too big to fail. As for me, I only worked there for 5 years and left when it was at its height. After I quit I got a letter from Nortel stating that my minimal benefits were not worth it for them to administer. They were going to keep my pension money and I was welcome to sue if I didn't agree. I guess as it turned out, it didn't make much difference...
  - maximilianburke 12y ago
    It wasn't mentioned if the job was public or private sector. Many government jobs have good pensions.
    - chris_wot 12y ago
      In Australia, this gets taken out of the equation as we have compulsory superannuation.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

by SEJeff 12y ago

istvan__ 12y ago

Could not agree more, the only downside is that some companies see you as a job hopper, but you can just explain to them that losing 30K-40K/year (aka staying in your job) is not an option

SEJeff 12y ago
I've worked at companies at a minimum of 2 years or more and have switched between 5 companies. Would that be considered job hopping? If I was a hiring manager, seems totally reasonable to me.
- byoung2 12y ago
  I have been at 6 companies in 10 years and have not had a problem explaining it. In tech, 1 year per company is reasonable as a minimum.
  - istvan__ 12y ago
    Same here, I had to explain to a HR manager once, but I told them if they don't get it they are not looking for me. :)
  - ghaff 12y ago
    Maybe at Silicon Valley startups but it will raise flags in many places. That may be fine based on your interests however.
rifung 12y ago
Is 30k-40k really correct? That seems a bit high to me.. If you could make even 30k more a year from switching jobs, and you started at the standard 100k, after 10 years you would be making 400k. I haven't heard of any developers who make 400k. Then again, I suppose you never said this was for developers, so is there another job where this actually applies?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- nazgul 12y ago
  There's only been one documented (via a lawsuit) in the 400K range, although that was a few years ago: http://adtmag.com/articles/2011/05/27/what-highest-paid-programmers-earn.aspx http://adtmag.com/articles/2011/05/27/what-highest-paid-prog...
- istvan__ 12y ago
  I was following this pattern: test engineer, administrator, junior developer, developer, senior developer, principal developer, architect, principal architect. My last 2 job changes were in the 20 - 40K increase range. 250K is not unheard of. I guess this caps out somewhere, but if the US immigration keeps H1Bs under this control than we are going to soon experiencing 300K wages.
  - rifung 12y ago
    Ah okay I think when you said job change I just assumed it meant going to another company, not having a new position or title. I do wonder how quickly you can change positions though. I imagine once you get to senior it's very difficult keep going higher. At least this was what I heard at Amazon. Do you know if it's easier to get promoted when switching jobs? I have a hard time believing that since I think you would have had to accomplish something significant on several projects to get to principal, but if you switch companies it's very hard for them to truly the impact of what you did.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
s73v3r 12y ago
Then they'll simply complain that you're only "motivated by money" and that you "don't really want to be part of this team". This is, of course, ignoring the fact that everyone is motivated by money, and almost none of their employees would still be working there if they stopped paying.

logfromblammo 12y ago

Corporate loyalty is a two-way street. In medieval times, the vassal paid homage and swore fealty in a commendation ceremony, and the lord granted him a fief. The vassal had a duty to aid his lord, and the lord had a duty to protect his vassal. The vassal gave loyalty, and got a secure income in return. It was a permanent relationship. To dissolve it, you had to use an axe, rather than a pink slip. Corporate loyalty died when management culture forgot that the company owes duties to its employees in addition to its shareholders. Defined benefit pensions became defined contribution retirement plans. Then the employer contribution disappeared. Health insurance plans dwindled from all medical expenses paid to you paying 80% of the premium, $30 co-pays at every turn, and deductibles that are met midway through the twelfth month of the plan fiscal year, then reset. Training programs evaporated. Severance packages got smaller, or vanished. Even the amount of notice I get whenever permanent layoffs are to occur has become days, rather than months. So there are no more loyal vassals. We are all mercenaries now. I'll start sending out resumes if I so much as notice that the building has a new janitor. H. R. tells new hires: "How great it is to work here!" Give me cash, not lies. If corporate loyalty is dead, it is because corporations have killed it.

a3n 12y ago
Exactly. There's no "there" there.

NorthGuy11 12y ago

The death of pensions really did it. My wife and I each stumbled upon positions with a pension, and it seems as if the roller-coaster just stopped. We had no "loyalty" and moved around whenever the mood struck us, but now we look at the risk/reward of a more exciting job vs 25 years of stability and a secure retirement... it's not a hard decision to make.

mikekchar 12y ago
Just be careful. I used to work at Nortel in Canada which at one point had over 90k employees. When I worked there, I believe they were making $18 billion a year in revenue. Profits appeared to be good. A few years later it turned out the "good profits" were actually accounting fraud. The company tanked and everyone lost their job. But Nortel had a fairly good pension system, so the people who had worked there for 25 years or more were fine, right? Well, the company feared that while they were tanking the "best and brightest" executives would leave. Oh my! What to do? They were allowed to siphon the pension money into "executive retention bonuses". Of course this didn't stop the company from ultimately running out of money, but it did get rid of a large part of the pension money. Investigate your pension scheme and make sure you understand what will happen to your money should the company go out of business. Especially find out where the pension system is ranked as a creditor. No company is too big to fail. As for me, I only worked there for 5 years and left when it was at its height. After I quit I got a letter from Nortel stating that my minimal benefits were not worth it for them to administer. They were going to keep my pension money and I was welcome to sue if I didn't agree. I guess as it turned out, it didn't make much difference...
- maximilianburke 12y ago
  It wasn't mentioned if the job was public or private sector. Many government jobs have good pensions.
  - chris_wot 12y ago
    In Australia, this gets taken out of the equation as we have compulsory superannuation.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]