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This sounds a lot like the flat structure they have at Valve, except at Valve they have had that since Day 1 and everyone is used to it. I can't imagine the hea

This sounds a lot like the flat structure they have at Valve, except at Valve they have had that since Day 1 and everyone is used to it. I can't imagine the headaches and the absolute confusion that would result from trying to take a traditional management tree and flatten it. It seems like by its very nature the kinds of people you hired when you had tiered management might not be able to easily transition to a flat management, nor would they want to. Having worked in both environments, I can see that there's advantages and disadvantages to each, but I personally prefer having a manager to bounce things off of and to (for lack of a better term) shield me from any unpleasant office politics. I suppose I've just had good managers when I've had them, which is of course going to make things work out well for me.

pp19dd 11y ago
The valve employee manual is a great read. And well illustrated; worth a look: http://www.valvesoftware.com/company/Valve_Handbook_LowRes.pdf http://www.valvesoftware.com/company/Valve_Handbook_LowRes.p... (From an earlier discussion at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9250527 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9250527)
ValentineC 11y ago
There are articles on how Valve has "hidden management" cliques though [1]. I'm not sure if this was ever addressed by Valve itself. [1] http://www.develop-online.net/news/valve-s-perfect-hiring-hierarchy-has-hidden-management-clique-like-high-school/0115316 http://www.develop-online.net/news/valve-s-perfect-hiring-hi...
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- calinet6 11y ago
  It's very similar in holocracy: the people who are natural leaders will fill the management needs of the organization; it's just more chaotic, less predictable, and not as good. The lack of structure brings out the worst in human behavior. In my experience, it is a horrible system in which to exist. It's highly ignorant of psychology and behavior theory almost intentionally, and it creates far more drama and politics than any organizational system I've ever seen. It's not a good thing.
  - jmtame 11y ago
    Are you speaking from experience? It seems that if you completely do away with job titles, the politics would go away right?
    - detaro 11y ago
      Politics isn't tied to job titles. There still are people with different amounts of influence that try to influence others for their own goals. FWIW, Jeri Ellsworth (who was hired to do hardware stuff, didn't do well there and was fired in the end) described office politics at Valve "like back in high school". Not saying that it can't work, but it also is not without its flaws.
      - cthalupa 11y ago
        I wasn't aware of who Jeri Ellsworth was, but a cursory look says that she was fired by Valve. Were her comments before or after she was fired? I'm not sure that if it was after, we can necessarily count on it being objective. I've heard plenty of people make comments that aren't exactly the most accurate after they've been fired.
        detaro 11y ago
        True, should have mentioned that (edited it in). Relatively certain it was afterwards.
        calinet6 11y ago
        It's very difficult to deduce causality in that situation. She could have been fired due to not fitting in with the organization due to her valid concerns, or she could have brought up concerns due to bias from being fired. It is most likely somewhere in the middle, where her observations were somewhat truthful and somewhat biased.
        dalke 11y ago
        http://www.develop-online.net/news/valve-s-perfect-hiring-hierarchy-has-hidden-management-clique-like-high-school/0115316 http://www.develop-online.net/news/valve-s-perfect-hiring-hi... , which is one of the parent posts, gives some of the timing details. Even if it were before, would you "necessarily count on it being objective"? It seems like an impossibly high standard, given how many people make comments that aren't exactly accurate before they've been fired.
- qopp 11y ago
  It's implied/addressed in the employee handbook. Basically the studio doesn't have fixed roles but roles are allowed to naturally emerge around projects and may shift at any time. I don't think they are against people assuming responsibility or managing work, they just want to be more dynamic about it.
- sageabilly 11y ago
  Now that is a one-sided article if I've ever read one. Not to say that her position wasn't frustrating- I imagine that it was incredibly frustrating- but yeah OK she gets fired from Valve and then immediately goes on to do exactly what she was doing at Valve with the same engineers at a spin-off company that has Gabe's blessing producing stuff for Valve. How is that a loss? It sounds way more like Valve wanted to do something that was a radical departure from anything they'd ever done before (hardware), the intrinsic structure of Valve meant that it was difficult if not impossible to set hardware up to succeed (peer-evaluated hiring, bonus tied to value of work), and then Valve realized it wasn't working and decided to make a clean break instead of drag it out. So then Valve immediately says "OK guys we couldn't make this work within Valve but we will back you up 100% if you want to go make this work external to Valve."
- a_c_s 11y ago
  This reminds me of Jo Freeman's excellent essay, "THE TYRANNY of STRUCTURELESSNESS". Based on her experiences within unstructured feminist organizations, I think her insights are broadly generalizable. http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm
  - krrrh 11y ago
    Thank you for posting this, I hadn't read it until just now. It's clearly written, and the subject matter is historically accessible; I'm surprised I haven't seen it referenced in other discussions about Holacracy, Valve, etc.
rasz_pl 11y ago
> flat structure they have at Valve is a lie. It all depends on who you know and are friends with. Read on how Valve handled Jeri Ellsworth and her hardware team, they were all fired with no notice by Gabe himself.

pp19dd 11y ago

The valve employee manual is a great read. And well illustrated; worth a look: http://www.valvesoftware.com/company/Valve_Handbook_LowRes.pdf http://www.valvesoftware.com/company/Valve_Handbook_LowRes.p... (From an earlier discussion at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9250527 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9250527)

ValentineC 11y ago

There are articles on how Valve has "hidden management" cliques though [1]. I'm not sure if this was ever addressed by Valve itself. [1] http://www.develop-online.net/news/valve-s-perfect-hiring-hierarchy-has-hidden-management-clique-like-high-school/0115316 http://www.develop-online.net/news/valve-s-perfect-hiring-hi...

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
calinet6 11y ago
It's very similar in holocracy: the people who are natural leaders will fill the management needs of the organization; it's just more chaotic, less predictable, and not as good. The lack of structure brings out the worst in human behavior. In my experience, it is a horrible system in which to exist. It's highly ignorant of psychology and behavior theory almost intentionally, and it creates far more drama and politics than any organizational system I've ever seen. It's not a good thing.
- jmtame 11y ago
  Are you speaking from experience? It seems that if you completely do away with job titles, the politics would go away right?
  - detaro 11y ago
    Politics isn't tied to job titles. There still are people with different amounts of influence that try to influence others for their own goals. FWIW, Jeri Ellsworth (who was hired to do hardware stuff, didn't do well there and was fired in the end) described office politics at Valve "like back in high school". Not saying that it can't work, but it also is not without its flaws.
    - cthalupa 11y ago
      I wasn't aware of who Jeri Ellsworth was, but a cursory look says that she was fired by Valve. Were her comments before or after she was fired? I'm not sure that if it was after, we can necessarily count on it being objective. I've heard plenty of people make comments that aren't exactly the most accurate after they've been fired.
      - detaro 11y ago
        True, should have mentioned that (edited it in). Relatively certain it was afterwards.
      - calinet6 11y ago
        It's very difficult to deduce causality in that situation. She could have been fired due to not fitting in with the organization due to her valid concerns, or she could have brought up concerns due to bias from being fired. It is most likely somewhere in the middle, where her observations were somewhat truthful and somewhat biased.
      - dalke 11y ago
        http://www.develop-online.net/news/valve-s-perfect-hiring-hierarchy-has-hidden-management-clique-like-high-school/0115316 http://www.develop-online.net/news/valve-s-perfect-hiring-hi... , which is one of the parent posts, gives some of the timing details. Even if it were before, would you "necessarily count on it being objective"? It seems like an impossibly high standard, given how many people make comments that aren't exactly accurate before they've been fired.
qopp 11y ago
It's implied/addressed in the employee handbook. Basically the studio doesn't have fixed roles but roles are allowed to naturally emerge around projects and may shift at any time. I don't think they are against people assuming responsibility or managing work, they just want to be more dynamic about it.
sageabilly 11y ago
Now that is a one-sided article if I've ever read one. Not to say that her position wasn't frustrating- I imagine that it was incredibly frustrating- but yeah OK she gets fired from Valve and then immediately goes on to do exactly what she was doing at Valve with the same engineers at a spin-off company that has Gabe's blessing producing stuff for Valve. How is that a loss? It sounds way more like Valve wanted to do something that was a radical departure from anything they'd ever done before (hardware), the intrinsic structure of Valve meant that it was difficult if not impossible to set hardware up to succeed (peer-evaluated hiring, bonus tied to value of work), and then Valve realized it wasn't working and decided to make a clean break instead of drag it out. So then Valve immediately says "OK guys we couldn't make this work within Valve but we will back you up 100% if you want to go make this work external to Valve."
a_c_s 11y ago
This reminds me of Jo Freeman's excellent essay, "THE TYRANNY of STRUCTURELESSNESS". Based on her experiences within unstructured feminist organizations, I think her insights are broadly generalizable. http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm
- krrrh 11y ago
  Thank you for posting this, I hadn't read it until just now. It's clearly written, and the subject matter is historically accessible; I'm surprised I haven't seen it referenced in other discussions about Holacracy, Valve, etc.

rasz_pl 11y ago

> flat structure they have at Valve is a lie. It all depends on who you know and are friends with. Read on how Valve handled Jeri Ellsworth and her hardware team, they were all fired with no notice by Gabe himself.