4 ms·

That would duplicate most of our code and we chose not to do so. We currently have an unified architecture that handle both existing sip infrastructure and the

by Elv13 11y ago

That would duplicate most of our code and we chose not to do so. We currently have an unified architecture that handle both existing sip infrastructure and the distributed one. The distributed part is less or more done, it isn't a big part of the code (about 4% according to a quick rexgex) compared to SIP. We currently use an open network model, but will switch to a closed one based on the cryptographic chain of trust in the coming weeks. That about all there is to it, everything else is SIP/ICE/UPnP/TLS/RTP.

madez 11y ago
That would duplicate most of our code You wouldn't have had to write that code if using Tox were chosen in the first place. will switch to a closed one based on the cryptographic chain of trust This could differentiate the decentralized part of Ring from Tox. Can you give more details on this? Anyway, I still think you should try to join efforts.
Elv13 11y ago
> You wouldn't have had to write that code if using Tox were chosen in the first place. First of all, it is important to understand that Ring is based on SFLphone. Our team have over 10 years of experience (and code) working with the existing SIP infrastructure. Have an inter-operable SIP based decentralized network is really the whole point of doing what we do. > Can you give more details on this? (please note that this section talk about features in development, it can still change) The classical phone network is an open system. Everybody call call everybody, some for emails. This can cause some issues, such as tele-marketing and scam (+ spam, called "SPIT" in the VoIP community). Some other IM networks (MSN messenger, Skype, in fact, most of them) use the opposite. You can only open communication with people who are whitelisted. Traditional SPAM methods are mostly useless on most VoIP media such as voice and images as there is no "ahead of time" processing (everything is RTC). A distributed server-less network also cannot ban accounts, there is none. With IPv6, an IP based blocklist is also impossible. There is a bunch of ways to fix those issues. One is to build a validation network be asking the peers you currently trust to validate new persons. The downside of this is some serious anonymity issues. You basically tell the world who is calling you. The second option is to use a chain of trust. There is multiple ways this can be implemented. First, it can be done on the DHT itself. You only talk to nodes that are signed by a certificate authority you whitelisted and use TLS revocation and other protocol features to manage a pseudo-clean distributed closed-network from which intruders are banned. The second way is to use the full "global" DHT, but only allow calls signed by a trusted authority. For example, this allow a small startup to sign a bunch of certificates, place them on the DHT and let employees call each other. This network will be about as insulated from unwanted external calls as a private SIP server. Obviously, those 3 strategies are complementary and can be combined to eliminate SPIT and to a certain extent third party meta-data collection.
- madez 11y ago
  I respect your effort to implement an open inter-operable SIP based network. I only referred to the code that implements the p2p DHT part. That part was duplication of effort. Now, you are talking about a serious and interesting problem in open systems: spam/spit/... However, Tox faces the same problem. Their network was attacked at least once from the 4chan community. And they came up with a solution. Their solution doesn't force you to tell anybody your contacts and doesn't need certificate authorities. How about talking with them about the problem to join efforts? The Tox people are very open to other people using Tox just as a transportation core. I'd just be unhappy to have another DHT-based communication platform that didn't talk to the other players first.
- Elv13 11y ago
  In all honesty, the decision was taken by the project sponsor and is final. We built this https://github.com/savoirfairelinux/opendht https://github.com/savoirfairelinux/opendht and it is already used by some other projects distributed outside of Savoir-faire Linux. So far things look well for OpenDHT so I don't think Savoir-faire Linux will change its mind of the decision at this point. I know you think this is a duplicated effort, but it might not be as true as you think. I respect and understand your frustration, but the decision is final. However, do you have a link about the Tox 4chan DOS? A quick Google search failed to turn interesting results.
  - madez 11y ago
    the decision is final I think here is a misunderstanding. First, if you feel offended, then please note that I didn't mean to. Second, what decision are you talking about? You stated that the technology used by Ring to combat unwanted communication is still not finalized. I asked you How about talking with them about the problem to join efforts? I'm not asking you to throw away all what you've done in the area of DHT-based p2p communication and to start to use Tox. However, how about talking to them, since they fought the same battle? Maybe they have valuable ideas or experiences. Or you might help them with your ideas. However, do you have a link about the Tox 4chan DOS? I have no interesting link available. I'd suggest to take a look at their nospam ID's or to ask them. On a more general note, I think defining some decision as final to silence criticism is deeply harmful. You might want to consider that. Thank you for your information.

by Elv13 11y ago

madez 11y ago

That would duplicate most of our code You wouldn't have had to write that code if using Tox were chosen in the first place. will switch to a closed one based on the cryptographic chain of trust This could differentiate the decentralized part of Ring from Tox. Can you give more details on this? Anyway, I still think you should try to join efforts.

Elv13 11y ago

> You wouldn't have had to write that code if using Tox were chosen in the first place. First of all, it is important to understand that Ring is based on SFLphone. Our team have over 10 years of experience (and code) working with the existing SIP infrastructure. Have an inter-operable SIP based decentralized network is really the whole point of doing what we do. > Can you give more details on this? (please note that this section talk about features in development, it can still change) The classical phone network is an open system. Everybody call call everybody, some for emails. This can cause some issues, such as tele-marketing and scam (+ spam, called "SPIT" in the VoIP community). Some other IM networks (MSN messenger, Skype, in fact, most of them) use the opposite. You can only open communication with people who are whitelisted. Traditional SPAM methods are mostly useless on most VoIP media such as voice and images as there is no "ahead of time" processing (everything is RTC). A distributed server-less network also cannot ban accounts, there is none. With IPv6, an IP based blocklist is also impossible. There is a bunch of ways to fix those issues. One is to build a validation network be asking the peers you currently trust to validate new persons. The downside of this is some serious anonymity issues. You basically tell the world who is calling you. The second option is to use a chain of trust. There is multiple ways this can be implemented. First, it can be done on the DHT itself. You only talk to nodes that are signed by a certificate authority you whitelisted and use TLS revocation and other protocol features to manage a pseudo-clean distributed closed-network from which intruders are banned. The second way is to use the full "global" DHT, but only allow calls signed by a trusted authority. For example, this allow a small startup to sign a bunch of certificates, place them on the DHT and let employees call each other. This network will be about as insulated from unwanted external calls as a private SIP server. Obviously, those 3 strategies are complementary and can be combined to eliminate SPIT and to a certain extent third party meta-data collection.

madez 11y ago
I respect your effort to implement an open inter-operable SIP based network. I only referred to the code that implements the p2p DHT part. That part was duplication of effort. Now, you are talking about a serious and interesting problem in open systems: spam/spit/... However, Tox faces the same problem. Their network was attacked at least once from the 4chan community. And they came up with a solution. Their solution doesn't force you to tell anybody your contacts and doesn't need certificate authorities. How about talking with them about the problem to join efforts? The Tox people are very open to other people using Tox just as a transportation core. I'd just be unhappy to have another DHT-based communication platform that didn't talk to the other players first.
Elv13 11y ago
In all honesty, the decision was taken by the project sponsor and is final. We built this https://github.com/savoirfairelinux/opendht https://github.com/savoirfairelinux/opendht and it is already used by some other projects distributed outside of Savoir-faire Linux. So far things look well for OpenDHT so I don't think Savoir-faire Linux will change its mind of the decision at this point. I know you think this is a duplicated effort, but it might not be as true as you think. I respect and understand your frustration, but the decision is final. However, do you have a link about the Tox 4chan DOS? A quick Google search failed to turn interesting results.
- madez 11y ago
  the decision is final I think here is a misunderstanding. First, if you feel offended, then please note that I didn't mean to. Second, what decision are you talking about? You stated that the technology used by Ring to combat unwanted communication is still not finalized. I asked you How about talking with them about the problem to join efforts? I'm not asking you to throw away all what you've done in the area of DHT-based p2p communication and to start to use Tox. However, how about talking to them, since they fought the same battle? Maybe they have valuable ideas or experiences. Or you might help them with your ideas. However, do you have a link about the Tox 4chan DOS? I have no interesting link available. I'd suggest to take a look at their nospam ID's or to ask them. On a more general note, I think defining some decision as final to silence criticism is deeply harmful. You might want to consider that. Thank you for your information.