6 ms·

Researchers reverse bacterial resistance to antibiotics

74 points by ca98am79 12y ago

vmarsy 12y ago
Pretty interesting! tldr: Instead of trying a random sequence of antibiotics, the authors present "a precise, ordered schedule of antibiotics that doctors could rely on and know that in the end, resistance will be reversed, and an antibiotic will work" That optimal scheduling is found using the probability of mutations of the bacteria
dylanrw 12y ago
This is brilliant. One of those things that seem obvious once presented.
technofiend 12y ago
And what's the probability your patient will be as well ordered taking their antibiotics? Failing to complete courses is one of the reasons these resistant strains emerge in the first place. Very cool science!! Real-world applicability? TBD.
- tankenmate 12y ago
  Most patients who are subject to resistant strain bacterial infection wind up in hospital quicker. I suspect this research is mainly aimed at either serious/critical acute care or debilitating chronic care situations which tend to be costly not only in monetary terms but also in life and death terms.
- contingencies 12y ago
  Also, the patient has to be sick long enough to withstand cycling multiple whole courses. I guess that limits applicability to a tiny portion of overall cases, like very bad post-op infections, the elderly stuck in hospital beds or something.
et2o 12y ago
For many conditions you can't simply rotate antibiotics. Antibiotics have specific targets and different efficacious for reasons that are entirely unrelated to the reasons that bacteria develop resistance, not to mention different pharmacokinetic and other biological properties. This is something that looks great in a lab but may be very difficult if not often impossible to implement in practice.
rpenm 12y ago
Journal article here: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0122283 http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal....
- Melting_Harps 12y ago
  If we're throwing peer reviewed journals, I'd like to add this the mix because its siting in front of my desk: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2364932/pdf/MBD-01-467.pdf http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2364932/pdf/MBD-... (Check out the more recent citations for further reading) I'm not diminishing the danger of super bacteria, and I believe being in hospitals is perhaps just as bad as being in some war zone in terms of mortality if you're immuno-compromised or recovering from a disease/surgery, but I find it odd (not really, I've seen the self-defeating internal machinations of academia/pharma with my own eyes) that the advent of using silver as an anti-microbial is so neglected in the narrative; Bosch uses it in Germany in their refrigerators, and companies like DeRoyal sell gauze dressings specifically stated for that purpose.
  - totallynotcool 12y ago
    I dont think that I've ever seen the idea of silver being antimicrobial be neglected. We use burn dressings that are almost completely impregnated with silver, silver nitrate q-tips to stop bleeding(ouch), as well as topical ointments with some silver in it. Silver is pretty widely used in the medical field.
    - Melting_Harps 11y ago
      Really? Well, consider you have reiterated one of the ubiquitous applications that I mentioned in my argument, but the use of it to combat the super-bacteria is never considered in these studies; I believe this is more by design than not--in fact I found its absence particular lacking when I was finishing up my studies during the so-called 'pandemic' with H1N1. It was beyond absurd the hysteria that ensued, but perhaps more concerning was the blind and dogmatic line of thinking that occurred that surrounded it all--a (ill founded) faith based confidence in big pharma to solve everything, in this case: Gillenad sciences headed by Don Rumsefeld. I thought the pervasive theory about how it 'spontaneously emerged in nature' incredibly suspect considering I was completing my courses in Microbio and Biochem and working extensively with bacteriophages to create anti-biotic resistant e. coli with limited success under controlled lab conditions... then I realized my university-health sciences department was heavily funded by a major hospital. And all for something that was patented by Baxter: http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/276194 http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/276194 http://www.globalresearch.ca/big-pharma-baxter-files-swine-flu-vaccine-patent-a-year-ahead-of-outbreak/14430 http://www.globalresearch.ca/big-pharma-baxter-files-swine-f... So I find the use of silver nano-partical therapy, oral or sub-lingual administration or atomized silver inhalation methods are acutely lacking as possible means to combat anti-biotic resistant bacteria/infections, as well as viruses and fungi.
terravion 12y ago
This rotation of mechanisms of action to undo resistance is already widely practiced in agriculture with pesticides. It is part of the reason why organic agriculture and its heavy use of pesticides with low rotation is so problematic. (In the crops I work most in, organic farmers spray a lot more than conventional farmers on balance. As surprising as that might be to people outside of agriculture.)
- SomeStupidPoint 12y ago
  I must admit that I don't really have the background to process your comment. Can you... give a paragraph or two on what normal is and what organic farmers are doing differently to cause the difference?
  - gameshot911 12y ago
    I'm confused too - I thought 'organic' meant no pesticides were used.
    - Angostura 12y ago
      It depends quite considerably on which country you're in. In the UK 'organic' is heavily regulated and means pretty much that, in the U.S it's more lax. But my guess is that the poster is saying that because organic farmers have a much smaller range of less potent sprays available, they have to spray more by volume.
      - Melting_Harps 12y ago
        Hmmm.. you'd be surprised, mate; I did spend time in the West part of England and the occasional use of artificial pesticide was not uncommon especially when your top soil has been washed away and been battered due to flooding/erosion like it was in 2014 during those storms. Organic is a label, that while better than conventional is not to be blindly accepted as a panacea--that is why the community part of CSA should not be forgotten.
bhickey 12y ago
There are some really neat things going on here! If you're interested in this, check out a paper by one of my old mentors: Darwinian evolution can follow only very few mutational paths to fitter proteins. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16601193 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16601193) In general, the more deleterious a mutation, the more mutational paths we see for escaping a local minima. (The rate of compensatory mutation in the DNA bacteriophage phiX174 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15911582 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15911582)

74 points by ca98am79 12y ago

Pretty interesting! tldr: Instead of trying a random sequence of antibiotics, the authors present "a precise, ordered schedule of antibiotics that doctors could rely on and know that in the end, resistance will be reversed, and an antibiotic will work" That optimal scheduling is found using the probability of mutations of the bacteria

dylanrw 12y ago

This is brilliant. One of those things that seem obvious once presented.

technofiend 12y ago

And what's the probability your patient will be as well ordered taking their antibiotics? Failing to complete courses is one of the reasons these resistant strains emerge in the first place. Very cool science!! Real-world applicability? TBD.

tankenmate 12y ago
Most patients who are subject to resistant strain bacterial infection wind up in hospital quicker. I suspect this research is mainly aimed at either serious/critical acute care or debilitating chronic care situations which tend to be costly not only in monetary terms but also in life and death terms.
contingencies 12y ago
Also, the patient has to be sick long enough to withstand cycling multiple whole courses. I guess that limits applicability to a tiny portion of overall cases, like very bad post-op infections, the elderly stuck in hospital beds or something.

et2o 12y ago

For many conditions you can't simply rotate antibiotics. Antibiotics have specific targets and different efficacious for reasons that are entirely unrelated to the reasons that bacteria develop resistance, not to mention different pharmacokinetic and other biological properties. This is something that looks great in a lab but may be very difficult if not often impossible to implement in practice.

rpenm 12y ago

Journal article here: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0122283 http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal....

Melting_Harps 12y ago
If we're throwing peer reviewed journals, I'd like to add this the mix because its siting in front of my desk: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2364932/pdf/MBD-01-467.pdf http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2364932/pdf/MBD-... (Check out the more recent citations for further reading) I'm not diminishing the danger of super bacteria, and I believe being in hospitals is perhaps just as bad as being in some war zone in terms of mortality if you're immuno-compromised or recovering from a disease/surgery, but I find it odd (not really, I've seen the self-defeating internal machinations of academia/pharma with my own eyes) that the advent of using silver as an anti-microbial is so neglected in the narrative; Bosch uses it in Germany in their refrigerators, and companies like DeRoyal sell gauze dressings specifically stated for that purpose.
- totallynotcool 12y ago
  I dont think that I've ever seen the idea of silver being antimicrobial be neglected. We use burn dressings that are almost completely impregnated with silver, silver nitrate q-tips to stop bleeding(ouch), as well as topical ointments with some silver in it. Silver is pretty widely used in the medical field.
  - Melting_Harps 11y ago
    Really? Well, consider you have reiterated one of the ubiquitous applications that I mentioned in my argument, but the use of it to combat the super-bacteria is never considered in these studies; I believe this is more by design than not--in fact I found its absence particular lacking when I was finishing up my studies during the so-called 'pandemic' with H1N1. It was beyond absurd the hysteria that ensued, but perhaps more concerning was the blind and dogmatic line of thinking that occurred that surrounded it all--a (ill founded) faith based confidence in big pharma to solve everything, in this case: Gillenad sciences headed by Don Rumsefeld. I thought the pervasive theory about how it 'spontaneously emerged in nature' incredibly suspect considering I was completing my courses in Microbio and Biochem and working extensively with bacteriophages to create anti-biotic resistant e. coli with limited success under controlled lab conditions... then I realized my university-health sciences department was heavily funded by a major hospital. And all for something that was patented by Baxter: http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/276194 http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/276194 http://www.globalresearch.ca/big-pharma-baxter-files-swine-flu-vaccine-patent-a-year-ahead-of-outbreak/14430 http://www.globalresearch.ca/big-pharma-baxter-files-swine-f... So I find the use of silver nano-partical therapy, oral or sub-lingual administration or atomized silver inhalation methods are acutely lacking as possible means to combat anti-biotic resistant bacteria/infections, as well as viruses and fungi.

terravion 12y ago

This rotation of mechanisms of action to undo resistance is already widely practiced in agriculture with pesticides. It is part of the reason why organic agriculture and its heavy use of pesticides with low rotation is so problematic. (In the crops I work most in, organic farmers spray a lot more than conventional farmers on balance. As surprising as that might be to people outside of agriculture.)

SomeStupidPoint 12y ago
I must admit that I don't really have the background to process your comment. Can you... give a paragraph or two on what normal is and what organic farmers are doing differently to cause the difference?
- gameshot911 12y ago
  I'm confused too - I thought 'organic' meant no pesticides were used.
  - Angostura 12y ago
    It depends quite considerably on which country you're in. In the UK 'organic' is heavily regulated and means pretty much that, in the U.S it's more lax. But my guess is that the poster is saying that because organic farmers have a much smaller range of less potent sprays available, they have to spray more by volume.
    - Melting_Harps 12y ago
      Hmmm.. you'd be surprised, mate; I did spend time in the West part of England and the occasional use of artificial pesticide was not uncommon especially when your top soil has been washed away and been battered due to flooding/erosion like it was in 2014 during those storms. Organic is a label, that while better than conventional is not to be blindly accepted as a panacea--that is why the community part of CSA should not be forgotten.

bhickey 12y ago

There are some really neat things going on here! If you're interested in this, check out a paper by one of my old mentors: Darwinian evolution can follow only very few mutational paths to fitter proteins. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16601193 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16601193) In general, the more deleterious a mutation, the more mutational paths we see for escaping a local minima. (The rate of compensatory mutation in the DNA bacteriophage phiX174 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15911582 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15911582)