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As a German I feel strange seeing a nationalist party win. Is it reasonable to worry here? Don't know much about Scotland. *edit: deleted a sub comment after b

by erikb 12y ago

As a German I feel strange seeing a nationalist party win. Is it reasonable to worry here? Don't know much about Scotland. *edit: deleted a sub comment after being shown that I misunderstood something.

Luc 12y ago
Worry about what?
- erikb 12y ago
  "Nationalist Party German History" peek what google has to say about that topic if your memory from school and grand parents isn't sufficient already. ;)
  - Luc 12y ago
    Pffft. Same argument can be used against socialism. All the other parties are nationalist too, and sometimes fiercely so, just for the current status quo.
    - erikb 12y ago
      There was no argument but a question. I interpret your answer as "no there's nothing to answer". Thanks for your reply.
    - masklinn 12y ago
      > Pffft. Same argument can be used against socialism. Sure, but it's understandable that a german would be slightly worried no? Though nationalism in general is benign in most of the world, it remains a worrying sight in Germany (IIRC a few years ago there were comments that Germans only allowed themselves waving the flag for football matches) for perfectly good historical reasons.
rossng 12y ago
The SNP are nothing to worry about, really. They're centre-left and moderate. They might campaign for another referendum but it would be silly to class them as xenophobic. However, from a technology perspective the new Tory majority really worries me. They have no understanding of tech. They want to reintroduce sweeping surveillance legislation that was blocked by the Lib Dems in the previous government. They also want to ban encryption (!) and will continue to attempt to censor the internet. They will also likely fail to reform the current system that sees people being arrested for making jokes on Twitter (or, more widely, our terrible libel laws). They also have no real interest in ensuring widespread rollout of high-speed fibre broadband. They'll pay lip service to it, but that's easy to do. They are also unconcerned about data protection and will likely continue to allow more care.data-style schemes with little effective oversight. The only upsides: GDS and open data initiatives will probably survive.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
  - masklinn 12y ago
    I think you've misunderstood GP's comment, the second paragraph onwards is about the tories (conservatives), not the SNP. AFAIK the SNP has regularly condemned surveillance plans and monitoring expansions.
  - _petronius 12y ago
    I think you may have misread the comment -- it's the Conservatives (who now have a parliamentary majority on the national level) that will prove problematic on technology, surveillance, and encryption issues, not the SNP. The SNP is centre-left (and probably to the left of Labour at the moment, which is one reason for their victory in Scotland) and oppose the Conservative position on those issues.
  - rossng 12y ago
    I have Scottish family, but I have always lived in England. Most of the Scots I'm related to or know are fairly anti-SNP/anti-independence. I don't really care (a sentiment shared by many outside Scotland) - although I suspect Scotland might struggle as an independent economy. I don't think the SNP are necessarily bad for tech savvy people - I just don't think they care much about any of those issues at all. By contrast, the Conservatives are looking to enact actively anti-tech legislation.
masklinn 12y ago
No reason to worry, they're left-wing nationalists who want an independent scottish nation. They're civic nationalists and social democrats, in German politics they're around the Greens, maybe mixed with a bit of SDP, in the European Parliament they're currently part of the Green/EFA alliance (same as the german Greens and Pirate Party)
Brakenshire 12y ago
There is definitely a pretty strong element of 'us vs. them' with the SNP, but I wouldn't say it's any different to the same sort of thing which happens in almost any nation state. i.e. they're nationalist in the same way that a French person believes that France should be a nation. There is, I would say, unpleasantness and irrationality in it, but no more so than in the usual way that people rally round to defend against foreign criticism, or judge practices or ideas in terms of whether they are 'truly British', 'anti-American', or whatever.
kagamine 12y ago
Nationalist in this context has nothing in common with how the word is generally used in politics. The SNP are in favor of ethnic diversity, this is about control of resources, both natural and political, for the people who live in Scotland (wherever they came from originally). IT's about wresting control from the south of England who Scots feel have marginalized their country (yes, 'country', although technically no longer a country in the proper sense, I should like to point out to other HNers that Scotland has retained judicial, taxation and education systems separate from England and Wales).

by erikb 12y ago

Luc 12y ago

Worry about what?

erikb 12y ago
"Nationalist Party German History" peek what google has to say about that topic if your memory from school and grand parents isn't sufficient already. ;)
- Luc 12y ago
  Pffft. Same argument can be used against socialism. All the other parties are nationalist too, and sometimes fiercely so, just for the current status quo.
  - erikb 12y ago
    There was no argument but a question. I interpret your answer as "no there's nothing to answer". Thanks for your reply.
  - masklinn 12y ago
    > Pffft. Same argument can be used against socialism. Sure, but it's understandable that a german would be slightly worried no? Though nationalism in general is benign in most of the world, it remains a worrying sight in Germany (IIRC a few years ago there were comments that Germans only allowed themselves waving the flag for football matches) for perfectly good historical reasons.

rossng 12y ago

The SNP are nothing to worry about, really. They're centre-left and moderate. They might campaign for another referendum but it would be silly to class them as xenophobic. However, from a technology perspective the new Tory majority really worries me. They have no understanding of tech. They want to reintroduce sweeping surveillance legislation that was blocked by the Lib Dems in the previous government. They also want to ban encryption (!) and will continue to attempt to censor the internet. They will also likely fail to reform the current system that sees people being arrested for making jokes on Twitter (or, more widely, our terrible libel laws). They also have no real interest in ensuring widespread rollout of high-speed fibre broadband. They'll pay lip service to it, but that's easy to do. They are also unconcerned about data protection and will likely continue to allow more care.data-style schemes with little effective oversight. The only upsides: GDS and open data initiatives will probably survive.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- masklinn 12y ago
  I think you've misunderstood GP's comment, the second paragraph onwards is about the tories (conservatives), not the SNP. AFAIK the SNP has regularly condemned surveillance plans and monitoring expansions.
- _petronius 12y ago
  I think you may have misread the comment -- it's the Conservatives (who now have a parliamentary majority on the national level) that will prove problematic on technology, surveillance, and encryption issues, not the SNP. The SNP is centre-left (and probably to the left of Labour at the moment, which is one reason for their victory in Scotland) and oppose the Conservative position on those issues.
- rossng 12y ago
  I have Scottish family, but I have always lived in England. Most of the Scots I'm related to or know are fairly anti-SNP/anti-independence. I don't really care (a sentiment shared by many outside Scotland) - although I suspect Scotland might struggle as an independent economy. I don't think the SNP are necessarily bad for tech savvy people - I just don't think they care much about any of those issues at all. By contrast, the Conservatives are looking to enact actively anti-tech legislation.

masklinn 12y ago

No reason to worry, they're left-wing nationalists who want an independent scottish nation. They're civic nationalists and social democrats, in German politics they're around the Greens, maybe mixed with a bit of SDP, in the European Parliament they're currently part of the Green/EFA alliance (same as the german Greens and Pirate Party)

Brakenshire 12y ago

There is definitely a pretty strong element of 'us vs. them' with the SNP, but I wouldn't say it's any different to the same sort of thing which happens in almost any nation state. i.e. they're nationalist in the same way that a French person believes that France should be a nation. There is, I would say, unpleasantness and irrationality in it, but no more so than in the usual way that people rally round to defend against foreign criticism, or judge practices or ideas in terms of whether they are 'truly British', 'anti-American', or whatever.

kagamine 12y ago

Nationalist in this context has nothing in common with how the word is generally used in politics. The SNP are in favor of ethnic diversity, this is about control of resources, both natural and political, for the people who live in Scotland (wherever they came from originally). IT's about wresting control from the south of England who Scots feel have marginalized their country (yes, 'country', although technically no longer a country in the proper sense, I should like to point out to other HNers that Scotland has retained judicial, taxation and education systems separate from England and Wales).