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Street cars are still around here in the Netherlands. I don't like them for the reasons given in the article: They get stuck in traffic jams (even though they h

Street cars are still around here in the Netherlands. I don't like them for the reasons given in the article: They get stuck in traffic jams (even though they have the right of way). That makes them very slow during traffic hours, even slower than simply biking. A subway system, like the one they have in New York and in London, is superior in every way. They are building a new line in Amsterdam now, which will replace some of the street cars, and I can't wait for them to finish it.

scotty79 11y ago
The caveat with trams is that you need to plan for them. Slapping tram in the middle of the road to share it with cars won't do you that much good.
yvdriess 11y ago
It is rare for trams in Belgian cities to still drive on the road. Most have gotten a separate bedding. https://www.google.be/maps/@50.829617,4.434058,3a,75y,12.81h,73.54t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s8bDdcxNwZmZuE2DVhoBD4g!2e0!6m1!1e1 https://www.google.be/maps/@50.829617,4.434058,3a,75y,12.81h... https://www.google.be/maps/@50.826726,4.39792,3a,75y,247.36h,80.24t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sNVPO9xmTvUt2_wiCbPQX6g!2e0!6m1!1e1 https://www.google.be/maps/@50.826726,4.39792,3a,75y,247.36h...
bkor 11y ago
Streetcars work fine enough in Rotterdam. Is your experience limited to Amsterdam city centre? The metro live you speak of had been heavily delayed and way over budget. I prefer metro lines, but that's because I can more readily figure out where it's going and how.
Xylakant 11y ago
The situation is fairly interesting: In the old eastern part streetcars still exist, while they were dismantled in the old western parts. I notice that the streetcar fills an important role in the transport network: It's faster, more reliable and higher capacity than buses but still cheaper and with a more dense network than subway or light rail. It efficiently bridges the gap and provides access to to areas that are less well connected by the large lines. Reaching those areas in East Berlin is a breeze, reaching them in West Berlin a pain. Street cars usually don't share the roads though.
oltrusty 11y ago
These are valid issues but no way is metro superior in every way. I have used the trams in Melbourne Australia extensively and it is generally a great experience. You feel part of street life. Just jump on and go a few stops if need be. For longer distances it sometimes turn into light-rail that is separate from the road e.g. down a median strip in the middle etc. With city centres becoming better, more pedestrian focused and less car orientated, trams are awesome. I think most subways around the world are depressing, functional things. There is room for both.
ceronman 11y ago
I live in Amsterdam and I agree that a subway system is probably faster and more efficient. However I find the street cars' ride more enjoyable. I don't like the idea of getting into the ground, with nothing to see from your window different than concrete. With the tram, you might take longer, but you can appreciate the beautiful city around you. Also, stations for a subway systems requires more space, they're much harder to build and they're really expensive. So I disagree with the idea that subways are superior in every way. Street cars have some advantages as well.
- Thlom 11y ago
  Underground stations are also less accessible as you have to go down several flights of stairs.
  - simoncion 11y ago
    Most countries have safe and effective elevators. :)
mironathetin 11y ago
In some german citys, streetcar tracks are separated from the carways, at least in the city centers - separated in a way that a car gets damaged if they try to violate the separation. Taking into account that a subway is so much more expensive to build than streetcar tracks, that driving in bright light outside is more enjoyable than driving underground and probably, that we want cars to stay out of the cities as much as possible, streetcars are great, imho. More comfortable than busses for sure.
cousin_it 11y ago
Cars shouldn't be allowed to block trams. If someone does, fine them heavily. I live in Zurich, which has an awesome tram system, and I never get stuck in traffic on a tram. Overall I like trams much better than subways. There are tram stops every 200 meters, you can hop on and off, you get to see the city instead of a concrete tunnel, and you don't need to drag your kid stroller up and down the fucking stairs. Cars, on the other hand, suck. It's one thing to have a city with a million people, but it's quite another thing to have a city with a million cars. Suddenly the whole place is paved over, the air is disgusting, and you can't walk anywhere anymore. Sense of freedom, my ass. It's great that Switzerland makes owning and parking a car so expensive.
- Symbiote 11y ago
  An underground railway has a much higher capacity. The Victoria Line in London runs a train every 105 seconds at peak time in each direction, with a design capacity of 864 people per train. (I think that's the most frequent line.) A long tram, such as Edinburgh's, can carry about 250, and will be slower due to street traffic, junctions, and more frequent stops.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    I wonder why not use both underground and trams. A system designed like that could work like a skip list - you take "the tube" to quickly cover big distances, and use trams to cover the last mile or two.
    - bane 11y ago
      It used to be that way in many cities. NYC, for example, used to have a surface rail system and streetcars in addition to the awesome subway.
    - Symbiote 11y ago
      London used to have that, here's a map of the trams pre 1952: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trams_in_London#/media/File:Trams_in_London.svg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trams_in_London#/media/File:Tra... But most tube stations are only around 10 minutes walk apart, so it's not often necessary to use both in most of the busier areas.
IkmoIkmo 11y ago
What? Lived in Amsterdam my whole life, only time I get stuck in a tram is when there's an accident (usually a taxi or something) on the track. Cars aren't allowed on tram tracks in 95% of streets where they're on a separate lane. But even then, traffic in the city where trams are is sort of rare, most congestion is on highways where trams obviously aren't a problem. The trams are certainly not perfect and I like the metro system and look forward to the long overdue noord-zuid, but trams are an important part of the traffic mix, especially in a city in which a new metro line is very difficult. There are certainly a few notorious streets where the car lane is 80% as wide as it should be, and so cars go on the tram tracks, which can suck during peak hours. But I find that most tracks run on separate heightened tracks completely. If you happen to live in one of these streets and happen to want to take the tram everyday during peak hours I can imagine the frustration. But by and large they're really nice. You mentioned New York and London, I have to say I get around easier in Amsterdam than I did while I was in these other two cities. That's not to say Trams are amazing, but again, the traffic mix is really nice here in my opinion and trams are a part of that story. And compared to London its pretty affordable, too.

scotty79 11y ago

The caveat with trams is that you need to plan for them. Slapping tram in the middle of the road to share it with cars won't do you that much good.

yvdriess 11y ago

It is rare for trams in Belgian cities to still drive on the road. Most have gotten a separate bedding. https://www.google.be/maps/@50.829617,4.434058,3a,75y,12.81h,73.54t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s8bDdcxNwZmZuE2DVhoBD4g!2e0!6m1!1e1 https://www.google.be/maps/@50.829617,4.434058,3a,75y,12.81h... https://www.google.be/maps/@50.826726,4.39792,3a,75y,247.36h,80.24t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sNVPO9xmTvUt2_wiCbPQX6g!2e0!6m1!1e1 https://www.google.be/maps/@50.826726,4.39792,3a,75y,247.36h...

bkor 11y ago

Streetcars work fine enough in Rotterdam. Is your experience limited to Amsterdam city centre? The metro live you speak of had been heavily delayed and way over budget. I prefer metro lines, but that's because I can more readily figure out where it's going and how.

Xylakant 11y ago

The situation is fairly interesting: In the old eastern part streetcars still exist, while they were dismantled in the old western parts. I notice that the streetcar fills an important role in the transport network: It's faster, more reliable and higher capacity than buses but still cheaper and with a more dense network than subway or light rail. It efficiently bridges the gap and provides access to to areas that are less well connected by the large lines. Reaching those areas in East Berlin is a breeze, reaching them in West Berlin a pain. Street cars usually don't share the roads though.

oltrusty 11y ago

These are valid issues but no way is metro superior in every way. I have used the trams in Melbourne Australia extensively and it is generally a great experience. You feel part of street life. Just jump on and go a few stops if need be. For longer distances it sometimes turn into light-rail that is separate from the road e.g. down a median strip in the middle etc. With city centres becoming better, more pedestrian focused and less car orientated, trams are awesome. I think most subways around the world are depressing, functional things. There is room for both.

ceronman 11y ago

I live in Amsterdam and I agree that a subway system is probably faster and more efficient. However I find the street cars' ride more enjoyable. I don't like the idea of getting into the ground, with nothing to see from your window different than concrete. With the tram, you might take longer, but you can appreciate the beautiful city around you. Also, stations for a subway systems requires more space, they're much harder to build and they're really expensive. So I disagree with the idea that subways are superior in every way. Street cars have some advantages as well.

Thlom 11y ago
Underground stations are also less accessible as you have to go down several flights of stairs.
- simoncion 11y ago
  Most countries have safe and effective elevators. :)

mironathetin 11y ago

In some german citys, streetcar tracks are separated from the carways, at least in the city centers - separated in a way that a car gets damaged if they try to violate the separation. Taking into account that a subway is so much more expensive to build than streetcar tracks, that driving in bright light outside is more enjoyable than driving underground and probably, that we want cars to stay out of the cities as much as possible, streetcars are great, imho. More comfortable than busses for sure.

cousin_it 11y ago

Cars shouldn't be allowed to block trams. If someone does, fine them heavily. I live in Zurich, which has an awesome tram system, and I never get stuck in traffic on a tram. Overall I like trams much better than subways. There are tram stops every 200 meters, you can hop on and off, you get to see the city instead of a concrete tunnel, and you don't need to drag your kid stroller up and down the fucking stairs. Cars, on the other hand, suck. It's one thing to have a city with a million people, but it's quite another thing to have a city with a million cars. Suddenly the whole place is paved over, the air is disgusting, and you can't walk anywhere anymore. Sense of freedom, my ass. It's great that Switzerland makes owning and parking a car so expensive.

Symbiote 11y ago
An underground railway has a much higher capacity. The Victoria Line in London runs a train every 105 seconds at peak time in each direction, with a design capacity of 864 people per train. (I think that's the most frequent line.) A long tram, such as Edinburgh's, can carry about 250, and will be slower due to street traffic, junctions, and more frequent stops.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  I wonder why not use both underground and trams. A system designed like that could work like a skip list - you take "the tube" to quickly cover big distances, and use trams to cover the last mile or two.
  - bane 11y ago
    It used to be that way in many cities. NYC, for example, used to have a surface rail system and streetcars in addition to the awesome subway.
  - Symbiote 11y ago
    London used to have that, here's a map of the trams pre 1952: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trams_in_London#/media/File:Trams_in_London.svg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trams_in_London#/media/File:Tra... But most tube stations are only around 10 minutes walk apart, so it's not often necessary to use both in most of the busier areas.

IkmoIkmo 11y ago

What? Lived in Amsterdam my whole life, only time I get stuck in a tram is when there's an accident (usually a taxi or something) on the track. Cars aren't allowed on tram tracks in 95% of streets where they're on a separate lane. But even then, traffic in the city where trams are is sort of rare, most congestion is on highways where trams obviously aren't a problem. The trams are certainly not perfect and I like the metro system and look forward to the long overdue noord-zuid, but trams are an important part of the traffic mix, especially in a city in which a new metro line is very difficult. There are certainly a few notorious streets where the car lane is 80% as wide as it should be, and so cars go on the tram tracks, which can suck during peak hours. But I find that most tracks run on separate heightened tracks completely. If you happen to live in one of these streets and happen to want to take the tram everyday during peak hours I can imagine the frustration. But by and large they're really nice. You mentioned New York and London, I have to say I get around easier in Amsterdam than I did while I was in these other two cities. That's not to say Trams are amazing, but again, the traffic mix is really nice here in my opinion and trams are a part of that story. And compared to London its pretty affordable, too.